POSSIBLE active Glacier on Mars?

[3488]

Possible active Glacier on Mars.<br /><br />I don't know myself, where is the ice originating from? Having said that, it DOES look like a glacier.<br /><br />Deuteronilus Mensae area.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[bearack]

That would be an amazing discovery! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><br /><img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Hi Andrew<br /><br />The images were relased back in Octobr 2006.<br /><br />http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEMADOV74TE_0.html<br /><br />There are lots of possible active glaciers on Mars (other than the polar caps of course), including many on the eastern and southern margins of Hellas.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[itsfullofstars]

HI JonClarke<br /><br />Your link doesn’t mention possible active glaciers. Yes sure there are plenty of glaciers on mars but to my knowledge this is the first time anybody has spotted a ‘possibly’ active one, one that is still moving. The others have been stationary for millions of years.<br /><br />I am surprised nobody has shown more interest in this thread, as an active glacier would most definitely mean liquid water. The ice at the bottom of a glacier is melted thru friction and/or geothermal heat. Even whole lakes have been discovered under glaciers here on earth and that water is usually teaming with extremophiles. <br /><br />http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070831140621.htm<br /><br />http://www.space.com/searchforlife/glacial_life_000829.html<br /><br />If indeed this is an active glacier it would be the most promising place to look for life on mars. Much better than spending hundreds millions to drill a tiny hole in a random spot on a lake bed that has been bombarded by radiation for millions of years, and even then hoping you just happen to have picked the right spot.<br /><br />Anyway Merry Christmass one and all, have a good one!!<br />

 

[robnissen]

<font color="yellow">an active glacier would most definitely mean liquid water.</font><br /><br />I am not positive that is a correct statement. On Mars would it possible for ice to sublimate and the glacier to travel on gas momentarily? Or perhaps momentarily become a liquid before becoming a gas, such that there is no liquid under the glacier? But if you are right, I agree that this is a very important discovery, and it is odd that people here haven't shown much interest in it.

 

[franontanaya]

But the factor for water sublimation on Mars is low pressure, and you'll hardly find low pressure under a glacier.<br /><br />It would be important to find how that ice ended there. If it's still moving, then either it's "young" or something recent put it on motion. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

No it doesn't, but the pciture clearly indiates plastic flow. An earlier Mars Express image of the Hellas region showing similar features was explictly linked to glacial activity, this was also written up in Nature, as I recall.<br /><br />http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEMN3IRMD6E_1.htm<br /><br />Some other random abstracts on Martian glaciers<br /><br />http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/7thmars2007/pdf/3353.pdf<br /><br />http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2002/pdf/1092.pdf<br /><br />http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/2090.pdf<br /><br /><br />Jon<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

I am nonplussed because in horizon of billions of years almost anything would show signs of plastic flow<br /><br />I for one am deeply pesimistic and don't believe in ice or anything 'going our way' to be found there, that's just a wishfull thinking and nothing else<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>I am nonplussed because in horizon of billions of years almost anything would show signs of plastic flow</i><br /><br />No they don't. It depends on the physical properties of the materials and the pressures and temperatures they are under. The lunar surface don't show plastic flow. There are penty of terrestrial rocks that have not experienced plastic flow for billions of years either. Large area of the martian surface show no sign of plastic flow.<br /><br />I for one am deeply pesimistic and don't believe in ice or anything 'going our way' to be found there, that's just a wishfull thinking and nothing else. <br /><br />So you don't find the spectral signatures of water ice convincing?<br /><br />http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2007/pdf/2159.pdf<br /><br />http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEMKZRNSP3F_0.html<br /><br />Or the netron data showing abundant hydrogen at high latitudes (water being the most common hydrogen-bearing substance)?<br /><br />http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap020315.html<br /><br />http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/odyssey/technology/grs.html<br /><br />And of course what ddo you say to the direct imaging of water ice?<br /><br />http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEMGKA808BE_0.html<br /><br /><br />Is this really just "wishful thinking"?<br /><br />Jon<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Jon,<br /><br />One question I have.<br /><br />What is the source of the ice? Is it upwelling from below ground level?<br /><br />IIRC there is not enough precipitation to maintain large glaciers on Mars, yet they<br />without any doubt what so ever exist.<br /><br />Is it 'fossil' water, frozen after the warmer, wetter periods ended?<br /><br />I like those links that you have provided very much. <br /><br />Also there is this MRO HiRISE of a portion of the unnamed 34 KM crater <br />that Mars Express imaged.<br /><br />Thank You.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Hi Andrew<br /><br />My understanding is that there are many sources of ice on Mars.<br /><br />Some will be ice "magmas", erupted or intruded during igenous events.<br /><br />Some will be frozen ground and surface water from former warmer periods.<br /><br />Some will be glaciers, formed by snowfall under different climatic regimes.<br /><br />The thing to ember that Mars, unlike anywhere else in the solar system, is a two volatile planet. in som ways it is transitiol, at least at the surface, between Earth and the more icy bodies of the outer solar system.<br /><br />Jeff Kargel"s book "Mars - a warmer wetter planet", although long and rather flow of conciousness, is a simulating read in this respect.<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

its like this, in past I (we) have seen features on Mars that I would swear was riverbed or water gullies for example and then I was taken out of my mistaken views by those who know better who explained how the 'billion years factor' when taken into account can do things that just look familiar to laymen but which were caused by some exotic processes<br /><br />it seems like planetary scientists eyes light up with the vision of H2SO4 or NH3 lake but I am not only non plussed but put off by the vision of such a lake LOL<br />it is exciting find only when compared to near absolute dead stillness of billions of years of lifeless rocks that otherwise prevails (or else hell of some atomic cookery as alternative like on those gas giant planets or sulphuric volcanoes spewing moons)<br /><br />and so I am tired of it all speaking as layman who would like to see if not balmy lakes with palms on shores then at least something human time scaled and a bit friendly and familiar to be found there, actually if I really have been layman I would be more optimistic given the upbeat excitement of scientists which I wouldn't understand but would be taken in by it<br /><br />as soon as it looks like we have glacier here questions crop up like Andrew here just raised about rain feeding the glacier... and anyway its something gazillion years old which probably didn't move an iota since trilobits lived here and will be exactly the same in year 5007 when tourists will roam over it and won't change appreciably in another hundred millions years and more...<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>its like this, in past I (we) have seen features on Mars that I would swear was riverbed or water gullies for example and then I was taken out of my mistaken views by those who know better who explained how the 'billion years factor' when taken into account can do things that just look familiar to laymen but which were caused by some exotic processes.</i><br /><br />With out links I can't comment on specific cases but there are many examples of water eroded features, large and small, on Mars.<br /><br />Gullies http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/themes/GULLIES.html<br /><br />Channels and valleys (many, not all, due to water) http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/themes/CHANNELS.html<br /><br />i<i>t seems like planetary scientists eyes light up with the vision of H2SO4 or NH3 lake but I am not only non plussed but put off by the vision of such a lake LOL <br />it is exciting find only when compared to near absolute dead stillness of billions of years of lifeless rocks that otherwise prevails (or else hell of some atomic cookery as alternative like on those gas giant planets or sulphuric volcanoes spewing moons)</i><br /><br />Whether or noy you are excited or put off by such discoveries does not alter their reality, does it? <br /><br /><i>and so I am tired of it all speaking as layman who would like to see if not balmy lakes with palms on shores then at least something human time scaled and a bit friendly and familiar to be found there, actually if I really have been layman I would be more optimistic given the upbeat excitement of scientists which I wouldn't understand but would be taken in by it</i><br /><br />Who has been taken it, and how?<br /><br /><i>as soon as it looks like we have glacier here questions crop up like Andrew here just raised about rain feeding the glacier... and anyway its something gazilli</i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[dragon04]

What a great place to stick a first permanent Mars Base. Over the course of the next few years, I hope this feature continues to be imaged for comparative purposes.<br /><br />If this <b>is</b> a glacier, and it <b>is</b> a result of the flow of liquid water, it infers easier access to just what we need to develop an ongoing human presence on Mars, IMO.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[3488]

Thanks Jon,<br /><br />I have only just received a copy of that excellent book, but have not really had time to <br />read it properly yet.<br /><br />That would make a good landing site. Like icecaps & glaciers on Earth, this will probably<br />have trapped gas bubbles & dust in the ice, so will hold information on the past of Mars.<br /><br />Perhaps we have found the landing site of MSL???<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Hi Borman<br /><br />The absence of larger craters probably means that the surface of the glacier is a lot younger than the surrounding terrain. This is what you would expect, of course. But with a glacier surface one would also expect craters to be modified and eliminated.<br /><br />I agree that the ice is almost certainly still there, buried under a metre of so of debris. It is probably stagnant, since accumulation is not occurring at this phase of the obliquity cycle. Given the size of the feature, it may well persist from one period of accumulation, to the next.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

It certainly is an attractive spot for a station. Access to the northern plains, and southern highlands, good cliff exposures, a glacial record for climate studies, low altitude (-4 km), mid latitude (40-45 N), and, like you said, a possible water resource (and probably of good quality).<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Loess (redistributed glacial dust) is certainly a possibility under such circumstances. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

I have looked for & found these MRO HiRISE images of Deuteronilus Mensae.<br /><br />Deuteronilus Mensae (1) from MRO HiRISE.<br /><br />Deuteronilus Mensae (2) from MRO HiRISE.<br /><br />Deuteronilus Mensae (3) from MRO HiRISE.<br /><br />Deuteronilus Mensae (4) from MRO HiRISE.<br /><br />Deuteronilus Mensae (5) from MRO HiRISE.<br /><br />Merry Christmas eveyone. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> .<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Sweet! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

glacier... ok but first the depression it flows into should be elucidated because untill it is understood how such sinking depressions happen all the talk about glacier (as far as it is taken to mean flow of water ice) is mute IMO (tons of other substances can flow in the exotic conditions such as those found on Mars)<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

The orign of the depressions and lowlands, while interesting it not relevant to the glacier ice. It will flow downhill regardless.<br /><br />As for the "tons of other substances that can flow under the exotic conditions found on Mars", care to name them? Remember they have to not just flow, but flow in the same way as ice. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

I'd rather think the two phenomena (sinking and existence of possible glacier) are related to some extent (if not being directly connected causally and materially) and I don't mean just mechanical relationship like elevation difference enabling flow etc. <br /><br />suppose there had been a body of water like a big lake or a sea (or some other liquid) which at one point froze over and in subsequent eons got covered with dust blowing in from shores and then at some later point temporary warming from underneath due to some geothermal factor or perhaps caused by the build up of overhead weight (which incresed pressure high enough to lead to melting...) led to the ice sinking and some water upwelling up to surface through a crack in the ice cover where it would freeze again and create glacier like ice deposit which then flows to fill the rest of sunken areas that are accessible to it (connected)<br /><br />there are many such sunken areas on Mars (the sink at the bottom right in the picture here is so typical) and perhaps such upwelling is relatively rare happening and mostly its just sinking of surface areas where bodies of liquid use to exist in distant past<br /><br />of course it doesnt have to be water for all I know but some other substance (however if you tell me no other substance can flow or at least not flow like this one does then I can't argue since my chemistry and geology education doesn't stretch as far as yours TBS, still any expert skates on mighty thin ice when it comes to planetary phenomena IMO), however if you planetary specialists believe it can only be water so it is water, still I'd let you be first to put the cubes of the stuff in your drink<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

Drinking the water in mars?Better for irrigation in India.

 

[silylene old]

<font color="yellow">I've heard that if the saturation point is reached, then evaporation can be slowed. Could the loess on top of the glacier actually trap enough vapor to effectively cut-off fast ice evaporation under martian conditions so that there is an ice glacier there instead of an ice depleted rock glacier? The Martian atmosphere can only get so wet. </font><br /><br />The vapor pressure of water at 0C is 4.57 torr. It would take quite a lot of water to arrive at this pressure to become saturated (100% humidity). In fact the partial pressure of water would be about half the Martian atmospheric pressure!<br /><br />Yes I know it is usually significantly cooler than 0C. But in the sunlight at noon at lower latitudes Mars can up to about 15C at its surface. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>