Progress/Soyuz at the ISS

viper101 · Oct 2, 2006

I was just looking at this picture: http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/shuttle/sts-115/hires/s115e06715.jpg And I count 3 Progress or Soyuz vehicles docked at the station - 2 side by side, and one closer to the top of the image. Does anyone know how many are normally docked? At the time of Atlantis undocking (When this photo was taken), I would have thought there would be one soyuz docked, and nothing else.

MeteorWayne · Oct 2, 2006

They always have at least one spare Soyuz docked should evacuation be required. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

CalliArcale · Oct 2, 2006

When Atlantis undocked, there was one Soyuz (Soyuz TMA-8, which has just returned to Earth) and a Progress (Progress M-57, I believe, which undocked shortly after Atlantis did to make room for Soyuz TMA-9). Soyuz TMA-9 did not arrive until later. But I think I see what you're talking about in that picture. You see three sets of Soyuz-like solar arrays. One is at the aft port of Zvezda. (That's the Progress.) The other two are at the nadir ports of Zvezda and Zarya. One of those is definitely Soyuz TMA-8, but I'm not sure what the other one is. Perhaps Pirs has its own set of solar arrays? I will check. You've got me curious. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

CalliArcale · Oct 2, 2006

Okay, I'm sure now that it's not Pirs. Pirs is at the nadir port of Zvezda, which is why that Soyuz-like spacecraft is sticking down farther than the other one. It does not have solar arrays, which is kind of what I thought. (They were on the service module, which was jettisoned after Pirs succesfully delivered itself to the station. I can only guess that there must've been a second Progress at the station. EDIT: I did find one link saying that Progress M-57 (launched last June) docked to Pirs. So perhaps that's Progress M-57 there now. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

CalliArcale · Oct 2, 2006

Got it! From RussianSpaceWeb.com's Progress chronology, I've worked out the identity of each of the vehicles. Zarya nadir port: Soyuz TMA-8. Pirs (Zvezda nadir): Progress M-57 Zvezda aft: Progress M-56 Progress M-57 remains docked to Pirs, and Soyuz TMA-9 has arrived at the aft port of Zvezda. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

viper101 · Oct 2, 2006

Thanks for this CalliArcale! I didn't think there would be anymore than one Soyuz in that image.

erioladastra · Oct 2, 2006

" can only guess that there must've been a second Progress at the station." Correct. Progress 21P was at the SM Aft, Soyuz was on FGB nadir and there was also 22P on the DC. After Atlantis undocked, 21P undocked and reentered. The 13S Soyuz then docked there. Soyuz 12S undocked and reentered. Probably next week the 13S soyuz will undock and relocate to the FGB nadir where the 12S was. Then later this month 23P will launch and dock to SM aft. Got it? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

CalliArcale · Oct 2, 2006

If anyone's confused why erioladastra and I came up with different designations, that is because I used the Russian designations and he used the NASA designations. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> 21P=Progress M-56 22P=Progress M-57 12S = Soyuz TMA-8 The NASA designations indicate which ISS mission a particular vehicle represents. The Russian designations indicate which actual vehicle it is. Progress M-56 is the 56th Progress M, and the 21st Progress to visit the station. This can be confusing, because NASA doesn't distinguish between models of spacecraft but the Russians do. ISS has been serviced by Progress M, Progress M1, Soyuz-TM, and Soyuz-TMA. I find it simplest just to think of the NASA designations as ISS mission designations, and the Russian ones as vehicle designations. For instance, STS-115 (Shuttle mission designation) was made with OV-104 (vehicle designation) and carried out ISS mission 12A. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

JonClarke · Oct 2, 2006

I must say that I am rather cynical about the continued quoting of ISS mission numbers for Russian spacecraft but not for the shuttle. It gives the impression to the unaware that the US has flown lots of missions (STS-115) and the Russians only a few (21P!) I am not sure if this is entirely innocent. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

erioladastra · Oct 2, 2006

"has flown lots of missions (STS-115) and the Russians only a few (21P!) I am not sure if this is entirely innocent" That is because some folks are mixing apples and oranges. From the ISS program point of view it was 12A and 21P - see, looks like we havent flown that many for ISS. Really both sides use the same conventions in that we use STS numbers for the actual Shuttle missions and they use vehicle numbers like Cali pointed out. When talking about ISS both sides uses the aseembly flight number. That is why I made the comment I did on the start of the STS 116/12A.1 thread! What is funny is that at NASA, folks in the shuttle program have a tough time telling you the ISS mission number and vice versa for station folks. See - it is innocent and no need for deep conspiracy theories! Thanks Calli!

SpaceKiwi · Oct 2, 2006

It's relatively unusual to have two Progress craft docked at ISS at one time, is it not? If memory serves, it has been more common to jettison an old Progress just prior to launch of a new one. Is anyone aware of the reasoning for it this time? Still room in the older one for some more garbage prior to its jettison perhaps? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

willpittenger · Oct 2, 2006

Until you finish unloading the new ship, where would you put your garbage? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

SpaceKiwi · Oct 2, 2006

I imagine they temp stow it in out-of-the-way locations until such time as the Progress is ready to become a 'garbage bin'. Perhaps the PMA tunnel and maybe Quest are pressed to that task, especially if those facilities are not going to be used for a few weeks? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

lampblack · Oct 3, 2006

The only notice I ever had about non-almond, almond smells was not good news. What causes this? Yeah... the only non-almond almond smell I recall ever reading about was the odor of cyanide gas -- which death row inmates apparently can detect in a gas chamber just prior to shuffling on over to the other side. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Just tell the truth and let the chips fall... </div>

JonClarke · Oct 3, 2006

But how often does the shuttle ISS flight number get quoted in the media, whereas the ISS progress numbers are mentioned most of the time. If it is not NASA practice then it is US media practice, which give the impression of palying up the number of US missions and downplaying the number of Russian. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

CalliArcale · Oct 3, 2006

I don't think there's anything sinister behind it at all. I think the media usually get their figures for Progress and most Soyuz flights from NASA, which means they're getting it from the ISS program, which will of course prefer to give out the ISS mission number from the consolidated launch manifest. But they'll get their Shuttle info from the Shuttle program, since that program has such an established line of communications to the press, so the Shuttle numbers get used there. That's my guess, anyway. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

JonClarke · Oct 3, 2006

Maybe not deliberately sinister, but just an cultural behaviour pattern that plays the achievements of other nations and boost the achievements of the US. I have seen too many examples of this in too many areas (space, avaiation, history of WWI, history of WWII etc.) not to think it is a real phenomenon. I think it is such a problem that I suggest a deliberate decision must be made to avoid this. However this leads us in a direction that is more appropriate for free space or private messages, so I will stop. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

erioladastra · Oct 3, 2006

"It's relatively unusual to have two Progress craft docked at ISS at one time, is it not? " I don't have the stats in front of me but it is not uncommon, especially in recent years and likely will remain that way.

erioladastra · Oct 3, 2006

"Until you finish unloading the new ship, where would you put your garbage?" Stuff - garbage and useful stuff - are stored in any corner that is available. If you look at current pictures of the ISS you will notices that the walls of the PMA leading into the FGB is completely covered with storage bags. The Node is full of storage to the point that fire extinguishers had to be pulled out of theor holders and mounted in front of the stowage. Stuff is stowed behind panels, in storage bins, in front of racks... The airlock is a big storage area and prior to an EVA time has to be scheduled to move all that stuff to somewhere else, temporarily.

erioladastra · Oct 3, 2006

"But how often does the shuttle ISS flight number get quoted in the media, whereas the ISS progress numbers are mentioned most of the time. If it is not NASA practice then it is US media practice, which give the impression of palying up the number of US missions and downplaying the number of Russian. " Lets see, the US public has been hearing STS numbers for 25 years. NASA bagan using ISS numbers from day one but most reporters still use the STS number because they are used to it. The majority of the US has only been hearing about Progresses for 6-7 years.

erioladastra · Oct 3, 2006

"Maybe not deliberately sinister, but just an cultural behaviour pattern that plays the achievements of other nations and boost ..." Or it is nothing. Some people see patterns in clouds or religeous figures in tortillas that are not really there.

willpittenger · Oct 3, 2006

So the Russians reverse that for the same reasons? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

SpaceKiwi · Oct 4, 2006

Common or uncommon is in the eye of the beholder, I guess, but I certainly do acknowledge what you are saying. It has occurred more often than I had expected/could recall when I posed the question. Progress Visits At ISS 1P 8 Aug '00 - 1 Nov '00 2P 18 Nov '00 - 8 Feb '01 3P 28 Feb '01 - 16 Apr '01 4P 23 May '01 - 20 Aug '01 5P 23 Aug '01 - 22 Nov '01 6P 28 Nov '01 - 19 Mar '02 7P 24 Mar '02 - 25 Jun '02 8P 29 Jun '02 - 24 Sep '02 9P 29 Sep '02 - 1 Feb '03 10P 4 Feb '03 - 27 Aug '03 11P 11 Jun '03 - 4 Sep '03 12P 30 Aug '03 - 28 Jan '04 13P 29 Jan '04 - 24 May '04 14P 27 May '04 - 30 July '04 15P 14 Aug '04 - 22 Dec '04 16P 27 Dec '04 - 27 Feb '05 17P 2 Mar '05 - 16 Jun '05 18P 19 Jun '05 - 7 Sep '05 19P 10 Sep '05 - 3 Mar '06 20P 23 Dec '05 - 19 Jun '06 21P 26 Apr '06 - 19 Sep '06 22P 26 Jun '06 - Vehicles in yellow indicate those in the presence of another Progress during a portion of their docked stay at ISS. 10-12P were an 'unplanned' (in the sense of the originally anticipated station stay) reaction to no Shuttle. Edited for clarity. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

thinice · Oct 4, 2006

General Russian media (not space/science-oriented) usually only mentions shuttle names (Atlantis, Endeavour, ...) and never uses any mission or orbiter numbers.

kosmonavtkaa · Oct 4, 2006

Here's the ISS Progress-es and their Russian designations: 1P = M1-3 2P = M1-4 3P = M-44 4P = M1-6 5P = M-45 6P = M1-7 7P = M1-8 8P = M-46 9P = M1-9 10P = M-47 11P = M1-10 12P = M-48 13P = M1-11 14P = M-49 15P = M-50 16P = M-51 17P = M-52 18P = M-53 19P = M-54 20P = M-55 21P = M-56 22P = M-57 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

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