Quantum Mechanics: Entanglement

[Gibsense]

I assume we all know what my beginner's book says. That particles (a pair of Photons say) can be entangled. So, if one is separated from the other then they act in exact synchronisation even if separated by light years. So if something happens to one then the other 'knows'. And it happens instantaneously.

To get the flavour: Einstein called it Spooky action at a distance, I think. Although there is not supposed to be any ability to transfer information (this would break the speed of light limit) it is thought that in the case of black holes losing one of a pair and one escaping might provide something useful (Hawking Radiation).

My point in making this post is not to tell you what you already know but to test an idea:-

But first: As the Universe moves forward in time which view below is the right one?

1. The universe is a "now" that moves forward extending what "already is" into the future in a deterministic way. Only "now" and possibly the past have any existence.
2. The universe is like a 'timewave' moving forward modifying a preexisting 'block universe' at the Quantum level to result in a changing deterministic macro universe.
3. Something else

In the case of number 1 Particles are carried forward in time as simple objects that we describe every day and I have no conjecture to add. The weirdness/spookiness remains.

In the case of number 2 particles are not particles but are strings extending throughout a block universe through time from birth to an interaction event. In this case, the original pairing is not lost by separation even when parted as they are still joined by location in the past and possibly in the future. Maybe

 

[Atlan0001]

The Verse (Turn....) is an ever-renewing renewal project. If goes forward in time in order to go backward in time . . . all at once in exactly the same Verse (thus Uni-Verse (One turn of the wheel(s): to turn; return.... endlessly finite in infinite offset parallel finite (altogether, REALTIME NOW 't=0'))).

 

[promytius]

I thought entangled particles can only share one communication, not swap data, nor in any other sense, communicate any other change than the single current orientation.
In my mind, the Universe is Infinite, but not deterministic; as in any moment there's a boundless amount of either/or actions, such as high state or low state of an electron, you cannot determine future randomness. One might easily conceive of a universe that is alive, as it is always growing and expanding and is quite active. If it were to have sentience, it would be in the now, and therefore would have no interaction with the future. "Future" is a concept, not a reality, or a force, or an energy. It's a mental gymnastic to help us deal with our total expulsion from ever experiencing the future in any way. It is pure conjecture. If we didn't believe in the persistence of reality, we'd never go anywhere without everything we have coming with us. We wouldn't put socks in drawers; it's that simple. The notion of a future helps us organize the present, and is a reflection of a projection of the past onto our logic circuits to reinforce our dependence on things staying where/what there are. Example: I put my socks away yesterday. I "know" they're there today, and "will be there tomorrow," even though the last phrase is imaginary and cannot be proved, as there is no access to the future; it is not an accessible thing or even idea.
The future is something that will be an eternally unknown, imaginary notion.
Regarding entanglement, I've read a lot about what its possibilities may be, in the future, however I have not read much about the practical consequences of the entangled particle's thermal environment being raised; at some point it must 'melt' the entanglement, and I wonder what the ramifications heat might have on real-world use of entanglement.
Thanks.

 

[billslugg]

In entanglement, the two are at exact opposite states immediately, regardless of distance, upon collapse of either one. The state of the one you collapsed is random and was not predetermined ahead of time such that the other one may have simply taken that information with them. No matter which end you look at, all you see is a random number, all you know is the other guy's is opposite. Yes, this is information but no you can't use it for anything. There is no possible way to use the phenomenon to transmit a "yes" or "no" to the other guy. All the other guy ever gets is gibberish and you hold a gibberish mirror image. In other words, you each hear the same noise but his loudspeaker is wired backwards and the sound is 180° degrees out of phase.

Mere timing of the noise cannot work either. You can't send pulses of noise. The other end cannot tell anything until it looks at a photon. But if you look at a photon, you collapse it. You don't know if you collapsed it just now or if the other person had collapsed it last week.

 

[Questioner]

Blundering in as usual,
["experts feel free to correct any following errors"]

The information entangled particles share is 'a complimentary opposite state/aspect of the other'.

Orthogonal geometry is i would say,
dimensions that share systematic distance relationships.
I think that may be true with non-Euclidean geometries as well.
Graph theory has no systematic [distance] relationships, other than sequential traversals.

Entanglement is a sharing, overlapping, joined probability wave/state.

There is some complimentary 'kissing point' of that shared wave state that seems to defy orthogonal geometry.

That conjoined point either stretches to infinity or orthogonal geometry is to some degree illusitory.

The join point releases simultaneously as far as can be determined, but is actually unprovable.

Question, can a superposition decohere withour obsevation?
That seems close to impossible to determine.

If one sets up an automated recording of state(s) when exactly does the decoherence occur?
I suppose that is the Schrodinger's cat question.

Does that imply entanglement is possibly time independent for some bounded temporal interval?

Maybe a clock could be added to the automated detector?

 

[Questioner]

Odd thought,



Does decoherence itself cause awareness and therefore observation?

 

[billslugg]

The two particles stay entangled until the instant either one is measured. Without measuring, we have no idea what it is. Measuring it only tells us its state, not when it achieved that state. You cannot "monitor" a photon to see at what time it decoheres. Any monitoring would decohere it.

 

[Questioner]

Is decoherence a terminal state of a photon?

 

[Gibsense]

I am

Question, can a superposition decohere withour obsevation?
That seems close to impossible to determine.

If one sets up an automated recording of state(s) when exactly does the decoherence occur?
I suppose that is the Schrodinger's cat question.

I am no expert in QM, just a reader of a book. However, please note that by 'observation' they/we mean interaction. Interactions such as collisions with photons or intense magnetic fields destroy one of the particles from its previous entangled form. Maybe Bill can provide some intelligence on this but the idea it is some magical human thing is not correct. I think the point is that when we observe then we do so using, say, electrons that then interact and cause collapse just like any other 'accidental' interaction. Nothing at all mystical.

You mention Schrodinger's Cat. Note that the state of the Cat is not determined until the box is opened. The opening of the box is the equivalent of say interaction with an electron thereby causing decoherence. Note also a different point I would like to suggest: The Cat is one or the other - dead or alive. The decision has been taken and one possibility has been 'chosen'
There is no need to suggest an outcome where both possibilities still apply. It seems to me the idea of trillions of alternative universes generated each microsecond is just silly.

 

[Gibsense]

The two particles stay entangled until the instant either one is measured. Without measuring, we have no idea what it is. Measuring it only tells us its state, not when it achieved that state. You cannot "monitor" a photon to see at what time it decoheres. Any monitoring would decohere it.

Oops, sorry meant to respond to a previous post

 

[Gibsense]

In entanglement, the two are at exact opposite states immediately, regardless of distance, upon collapse of either one.

I am not sure what 'exact opposite states' means. The book does not state that (so far anyway). Does it mean a sort of mirror image or maybe +ve/-ve?

 

[Gibsense]

Is decoherence a terminal state of a photon

Yes, I believe that is so, the photon is changed.

 

[Gibsense]

Entanglement is a sharing, overlapping, joined probability wave/state.

There is some complimentary 'kissing point' of that shared wave state that seems to defy orthogonal geometry.

If you meant ' Defy Spacetime geometry ' I would agree.

I was trying to suggest that in reality in a 4D spatial geometry (of a block universe, say) electrons and all other particles at the Quantum level may not simply be particles carried forward by time but have an existence as long strings. That is their past is still real to them. They exist as a string rather than a particle. In that sense, they are still joined together.

Our Universe moves on as a 'now' a present time. The quantum world may simply exist/ past /present/ future and is modified as our timewave universe passes through it. 'Sphereland' (the book) examines the psychology of our scientists in considering this proposal. Perhaps we should step out of our mental straightjacket sometimes (but not too often).

Your 'kissing point' I assume, is meant to be the initial start of entanglement or even some future meeting point. (?)

 

[Gibsense]

That conjoined point either stretches to infinity or orthogonal geometry is to some degree illusitory.

Only to decoherence on interaction

 

[Gibsense]

The future is something that will be an eternally unknown, imaginary notion.

Imaginary Guesswork. But the past is history and history is extended by the 'now' as it amends the universe. If you like, lol

 

[billslugg]

Entanglement can involve opposite states of many quantum states. With photons, entanglement can involve opposite states of either spin or polarization. I see position and momentum mentioned also but I don't know how they work in entanglement. For charged particles I suppose spin is what they deal with. That state cannot be measured without destroying the coherence. There is no way to transmit a "yes" or "no" to a party invitation.

 

[Atlan0001]

How many particle-waves (point-portals in space and/or time (in the universe (u))) do you pass through or by each day with out traveling faster than the speed of light. In the far reaches of interplanetary, interstellar, intergalactic, space and time, doing accelerating contractions of an observed accelerating expansion of universe (u), how many "blue dot"-like point-portals will you, a traveler under constant powering (constant acceleration), re-position from your superposition among and relative to them in space and time, all without measurably traveling faster than the speed of light? You will have no relative velocity, none-at-all, until you center and expand your destination before you out of SPACETIME's coordinate points past-future histories. You will be in many different relative positions of SPACETIME all at once doing many differing relative velocities all at once, all of it altogether, under accelerating contraction of the local-relative universe, adding up to far faster than the speed of light travel external to you between and among those "blue-dots"-like point-portals of SPACETIME. All of it altogether -- inclusive of contracting, in accelerating contractions, the local-relative universe (u) -- adding up to, "spooky action at a distance."

Repeating from elsewhere:

"Recently researchers observed photons existing a material before entering it (time reversal). One problem was they observed it, making it a Trojan 3-dimensional light problem (the Schrodinger problem of the observation itself)! The second problem was, and is, probably that quantum entangled jump-space (possibly 'Cantor Set' spacing as well as the involvement of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle) simply cannot be observed since no space exists between the points -- as far as those points are concerned (that point is concerned) -- regardless of what, from any distance, is observed!"
===================

You, the traveler, may arrive long before you are observed to even depart! A "spooky action at a distance!"

 

[Gibsense]

How many particle-waves (point-portals in space and/or time (in the universe (u))) do you pass through or by each day with out traveling faster than the speed of light. In the far reaches of interplanetary, interstellar, intergalactic, space and time, doing accelerating contractions of an observed accelerating expansion of universe (u), how many "blue dot"-like point-portals will you, a traveler under constant powering (constant acceleration), re-position from your superposition among and relative to them in space and time, all without measurably traveling faster than the speed of light? You will have no relative velocity, none-at-all, until you center and expand your destination before you out of SPACETIME's coordinate points past-future histories. You will be in many different relative positions of SPACETIME all at once doing many differing relative velocities all at once, all of it altogether, under accelerating contraction of the local-relative universe, adding up to far faster than the speed of light travel external to you between and among those "blue-dots"-like point-portals of SPACETIME. All of it altogether -- inclusive of contracting, in accelerating contractions, the local-relative universe (u) -- adding up to, "spooky action at a distance."

Z<> Z^2 +C

 

[Classical Motion]

Without being able to tag or mark the opposition, all entanglement measurement does is confirm that opposition. No action or event can be confirmed.

 

[Gibsense]

Just a pause for a moment to get wild thoughts together.

If 'entanglement' hints at a reality of the past time travel might be possible. Why do I say this?

• Possibly the entangled particles are 'still' attached because they are strings extending from history (from where they were joined up) and never separated therefore; irrespective of distance.
• If ,in the quantum world, history is still a reality then there may be a way to return to that history.
• The Universe seems to be only "now". A passing timewave where history is made by decoherence
• A following 'timewave universe' ( Cat !) may follow and amend the first - would it be possible to "hop" backwards?
• If we were to 'hop backwards' and alter stuff the earlier timewave universe would carry on independently (no Grandfather Paradox)
• A very different multiverse situation. Some may result in extermination, some might succeed. The intelligence in a tough version might well want to 'hop' for survival or curiosity
• Sphereland - the book - details the psychology of experts' response

 

[Atlan0001]

Gibsense,
You aren't seeing what is happening in the Einstein's vs. Schrodinger's geometric box (observable universe (u)) situation merging the box space geometry but emerging into plurality of tesseract SPACETIME boxes:

Tesseract - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is a splitting out of REALTIME NOW from SPACETIME for both traveler and observer! They keep the jointly spontaneously concurrent un-observable and, therefore, un-observed universe (t=0) in REALTIME NOW (t=0) but separate out into different SPACETIME past-future histories! Time dilation exists as a matter of distance between reality and relativity that light at the constant of the speed of light cannot possibly overcome. Entangling REALTIME NOW is universally t=0 as Stephen Hawking asserts in his 'A Brief History of Time' for his "Grand Central Station" of Universe (U) and its single core universal clock time of t=0 . . . which also must be the universal clock time Einstein discovered in his mind's eye trip to the speed of light. REALTIME NOW (t=0) is a universal entanglement universally without any SPACETIME "distance" between whatsoever . . . thus, two travelers and two observers (one each in an un-observably entangled real-time and one each in a possibly-probably observable time-dilated relative-time) . . . thus producing "spooky actions at a distance", period!!!!

In-line time reversal is relatively apparent due to quirks in even the slightest of distances and differences in actions and observations of actions, not really existing in line. The faster the action in-line in some maze of material setup, the more the observation per the constant of the speed of light (in a vacuum!) will be screwed and misconstrued!

 

[Classical Motion]

The “entanglement” is just a dynamic of handedness. The importance of handedness is completely unrecognized. I believe the only difference between a proton and an electron is handedness.

If I’m right, it has strong affect/effect and influence on matter. Both the structure and behavior. A very strong anti-balance. An energy imbalance and a temp imbalance. And an inertia imbalance. Size and speed imbalance. And opposite rotations.

The only equality between them is the electric field, e. Which is constant.

All we still have today is maps. One is the standard model and one is QM.

One hundred years ago a territory was proposed. And I believe this territory model replaces those maps. And explains many other things. In a territory way.

Absorption, emission, inertia and the “quantum” steps. It’s an active and variable territory. Like a device. An apparatus.

It also explains the periodic table. All from just a left and a right handed particle. Device.

Handedness an unrecognized pillar of matter and field.

But no one will go into un-mapped territory.

 

[Gibsense]

. It seems to me the idea of trillions of alternative universes generated each microsecond is just silly.

and

There is a splitting out of REALTIME NOW from SPACETIME for both traveler and observer! They keep the jointly spontaneously concurrent un-observable and, therefore, un-observed universe (t=0) in REALTIME NOW (t=0) but separate out into different SPACETIME past-future histories!

Well if this really is the case then given "z><z^2+c" we should all be careful what we wish for in a feedback fractal universe

Also, I have only just realised that your t=0 means 'now' not the beginning of time itself as I have always intended. Anyway if you are right then it gets a bit self-centred and lonely(?) if we each determine (or simply get) our own spacetime version to live out/in. And what about entanglement across billions of alternate spacetimes. Doesn't feel right to me butthen......

We stray too far to Metaphysics maybe especially if we regard co-incidence and perhaps telepathy etc to be an example of macro entanglement. I have only just found out what metaphysics is. Sorry

 

[Gibsense]

"Recently researchers observed photons existing a material before entering it (time reversal). One problem was they observed it, making it a Trojan 3-dimensional light problem (the Schrodinger problem of the observation itself)! The second problem was, and is, probably that quantum entangled jump-space (possibly 'Cantor Set' spacing as well as the involvement of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle) simply cannot be observed since no space exists between the points -- as far as those points are concerned (that point is concerned) -- regardless of what, from any distance, is observed!"

Have we got a reference for this observed photon exiting a material before it entered? Why time reversal? It just missed a beat. Oh right Cantor again.

oops sorry

 

[Gibsense]

The “entanglement” is just a dynamic of handedness. The importance of handedness is completely unrecognized. I believe the only difference between a proton and an electron is handedness.

Did you mean positron and electron?