Question about fusion reactors

[bdewoody]

OK it wasn't my OP but the one I made after several replies indicated that they are still not sure how the energy from the fusion reaction can best be harvested into useful electricity. One of the classes I took while a senior at UCF in 1972 was looking at the same questions that still haunt the scientists working in the field.

 

[EarthlingX]

OK it wasn't my OP but the one I made after several replies indicated that they are still not sure how the energy from the fusion reaction can best be harvested into useful electricity. One of the classes I took while a senior at UCF in 1972 was looking at the same questions that still haunt the scientists working in the field.

What would then be the questions, and what are proposed, tried, tested, approaches ? What is missing ?

 

[js117]

This is old, but good information.
Here is a link to a European study on future fusion power plants.
Dated 31.01.2006
I think it uses steam.
http://www.ipp.mpg.de/ippcms/eng/presse ... 06_pi.html

There are some large pdf. there also.

 

[EarthlingX]

This is old, but good information.
Here is a link to a European study on future fusion power plants.
Dated 31.01.2006
I think it uses steam.
http://www.ipp.mpg.de/ippcms/eng/presse ... 06_pi.html

There are some large pdf. there also.

Nice link, thank you.

This is one of the options, right ?

 

[js117]

This is old, but good information.
Here is a link to a European study on future fusion power plants.
Dated 31.01.2006
I think it uses steam.
http://www.ipp.mpg.de/ippcms/eng/presse ... 06_pi.html

There are some large pdf. there also.

Nice link, thank you.

This is one of the options, right ?

Yes it is one of the options.
The larger pdf. goes into very great detail abot the fusion reactor.

 

[EarthlingX]

The larger pdf. goes into very great detail abot the fusion reactor.

Yes, a good reference, with a lot of technical drawings, formulas and diagrams. It has steam powered generators.

Wiki is also a good start, it includes more options, with links to additional information :

Wiki : Fusion power
..
..
..

On January 28, 2010, the LLNL announced tests using all 192 laser beams, although with lower laser energies, smaller hohlraum targets, and substitutes for the fusion fuel capsules.[22][23] More than one megajoule of ultraviolet energy was fired into the hohlraum, besting the previous world record by a factor of more than 30. The results gave the scientists confidence that they will be able to achieve ignition in more realistic tests scheduled to begin in the summer of 2010.

* [23] Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory - Initial NIF experiments meet requirements for fusion ignition

January 28, 2010
NR-10-01-06

LIVERMORE, Calif. — The first experiments at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory’s National Ignition Facility (NIF) have demonstrated a unique physics effect that bodes well for NIF’s success in generating a self-sustaining nuclear fusion reaction.

In inertial confinement fusion (ICF) experiments on NIF, the energy of 192 powerful laser beams is fired into a pencil-eraser-sized cylinder called a hohlraum, which contains a tiny spherical target filled with deuterium and tritium, two isotopes of hydrogen. Rocket-like compression of the fuel capsule forces the hydrogen nuclei to combine, or fuse, releasing many times more energy than the laser energy that was required to spark the reaction. Fusion energy is what powers the sun and stars.

Dante Diagnostic: Many instruments-detectors, oscilloscopes, interferometers, streak cameras, and other diagnostics-surround the target chamber to measure the system's performance and record experimental results. By characterizing the X-rays generated during NIF experiments, including the latest laser-plasma interaction experiments described in Science Express, the Dante soft X-ray power diagnostic helps scientists understand how well the experiment performed.

This artist's rendering shows a NIF target pellet (the white ball) inside a hohlraum capsule with laser beams entering through openings on either end. The beams compress and heat the target to the necessary conditions for nuclear fusion to occur.

Science : Symmetric Inertial Confinement Fusion Implosions at Ultra-High Laser Energies

S. H. Glenzer,1,* B. J. MacGowan,1 P. Michel,1 N. B. Meezan,1 L. J. Suter,1 S. N. Dixit,1 J. L. Kline,2 G. A. Kyrala,2 D. K. Bradley,1 D. A. Callahan,1 E. L. Dewald,1 L. Divol,1 E. Dzenitis,1 M. J. Edwards,1 A. V. Hamza,1 C. A. Haynam,1 D. E. Hinkel,1 D. H. Kalantar,1 J. D. Kilkenny,3 O. L. Landen,1 J. D. Lindl,1 S. LePape,1 J. D. Moody,1 A. Nikroo,3 T. Parham,1 M. B. Schneider,1 R. P. J. Town,1 P. Wegner,1 K. Widmann,1 P. Whitman,1 B. K. F. Young,1 B. Van Wonterghem,1 L. J. Atherton,1 E. I. Moses1

Indirect-drive hohlraum experiments at the National Ignition Facility have demonstrated symmetric capsule implosions at unprecedented laser drive energies of 0.7 megajoule. One hundred and ninety-two simultaneously fired laser beams heat ignition-emulate hohlraums to radiation temperatures of 3.3 million kelvin, compressing 1.8-millimeter-diameter capsules by the soft x-rays produced by the hohlraum. Self-generated plasma optics gratings on either end of the hohlraum tune the laser power distribution in the hohlraum, which produces a symmetric x-ray drive as inferred from the shape of the capsule self-emission. These experiments indicate that the conditions are suitable for compressing deuterium-tritium–filled capsules, with the goal of achieving burning fusion plasmas and energy gain in the laboratory.

1 Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Post Office Box 808, Livermore, CA 94551, USA.
2 Los Alamos National Laboratory, Los Alamos, NM 87545, USA.
3 General Atomics, San Diego, CA 92121, USA.

 

[nimbus]

This is old, but good information.
Here is a link to a European study on future fusion power plants.
Dated 31.01.2006
I think it uses steam.
http://www.ipp.mpg.de/ippcms/eng/presse ... 06_pi.html

There are some large pdf. there also.

Tokamak-centric.

 

[Tritium]

There is a "pistol shrimp",which can snap it's claw shut at such fantastic speed,that it creates a bubble,which,as it collapses in upon itself generates a temperature nearly that of the sun.For a few nanoseconds,this creature produces a plasma ball,with the simple snap of it's claw. :shock:

 

[EarthlingX]

There is a "pistol shrimp",which can snap it's claw shut at such fantastic speed,that it creates a bubble,which,as it collapses in upon itself generates a temperature nearly that of the sun.For a few nanoseconds,this creature produces a plasma ball,with the simple snap of it's claw. :shock:

I had to check :

Wiki : Alpheidae

Alpheidae is a family of caridean snapping shrimp characterized by having asymmetrical claws, the larger of which is typically capable of producing a loud snapping sound. Other common names of these species include pistol shrimp or alpheid shrimp.

a couple of videos and text :
http://hubpages.com : Pistol Shrimp - Facts On The Fascinating Pistol Shrimp
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeFUO2F7Gvw[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcDB3lq47oU[/youtube]

Amazing beast

:roll:

 

[Tritium]

"There are thing which God hath created under this sun,which man has not yet seen or understood".I think that little shrimp is closer to a fusion reaction than we are. :lol:

 

[EarthlingX]

"There are thing which God hath created under this sun,which man has not yet seen or understood".I think that little shrimp is closer to a fusion reaction than we are. :lol:

Those lasers use something similar, wave-like, and i think i read somewhere else about guiding plasma with sound waves, though probably not exactly what you hear on the radio ..

 

[Astro_Robert]

All this talk about being 20 years away from Fusion for the alst 30 years.

When I was in school I was taught that Physicists wre working on Fusion back in the 1930s (Prior to Fission making its debut), and expected it would be an easy nut to crack. So we've been 20 years away for like 75 years. At this point whats another 20 or so between friends

 

[neuvik]

Well the NIF is gearing up, they just completed a successful test to achieve symmetrical target compression. More tests this summer should give a definitive answer.

https://publicaffairs.llnl.gov/news/new ... 01-06.html

 

[Tritium]

The NIF will pull it off this summer... :ugeek:

 

[nimbus]

Lawrenceville newsletter

Here's a brief rundown of Lawrenceville Plasma Physics, Inc.'s experimental program, which consists of 8 goals to be accomplished in late 2009 and 2010:

1. Assemble and test the machine, get a pinch. Done deal. The machine didn't blow up when it was plugged in, and it demonstrated its ability to "pinch"- transfer the magnetic energy into a magnetic bottle where fusion will happen. The pinch was expected after 20 shots, but was achieved on the second shot.

2. Produce 1 MA (million Amperes) at 25kV (thousand volts), and find the best fill gas pressure.

3. Test the critical theory of axial magnetic field.

4. Switch to Deuterium fill gas and reliably achieve 2MA at 45kV.

5. Confirm the University of Texas (2nd scaling experiment- this is the 3rd, full scale experiment) results using better instruments.

6. Heavier gasses such as Deuterium + Helium + Nitrogen, using shorter electrodes.

7. Switch to pB-11 fuel and show that some fusion is taking place.

8. Increase pB-11 burn to achieve net energy.

The first 5 goals were scheduled for the last quarter of 2009. The major challenges with meeting this timeline present opportunities for entrepreneurs in the extremely high voltage and current power storage and switching areas.

The capacitors and spark gap switches are built in a job shop manner due to the low demand and high prices for these parts. The lack of a market at present has allowed these suppliers to get away with intolerable quality and service levels, as you can read on the Focus Fusion Society forums.

It took 5 months to get the machine to fire all 12 capacitors' switches within the required timeframe of a few billionths of a second (the pulse only lasts around 1 millionth of a second) to concentrate the power on the electrodes, where the fusion cycle actually begins.

As of this writing in early April, 2010, LPP is performing the Step 6 experiments, which will hopefully confirm that the shorter electrodes and heavier fill gasses significantly increase the magnetic field and thus confirm their predictions that the increased field limits the plasma cooling due to X-rays cooling the plasmoid (magnetic bottle) more than the fusion reactions can heat it.

Classic physics doesn't teach the high field effect, although McNally did some preliminary, small scale experiments on it in 1975. This is why most physicists are highly skeptical that pB-11 fusion is even possible.

Steps 7 and 8 still have over 8 months left to accomplish.

Many physics departments can build a FoFu-1 clone for around $50k to $100k using mothballed parts, and a DPF fusion lab could galvanize an entire student body to figure out what has to be done in what order to use this to power their campus before any other school grabs the glory.

That we need to build a network of these machines that anticipates LPP's success- lead the target, if you will- rather than playing catch-up ball once LPP announces that they believe they've accomplished energy breakeven and are looking for scientific confirmation.

With very minor grammar edits.

 

[Reactor1967]

OK, I know how a fission reactor transmits it's energy to electricity, the rods sit in a water bath which heats up and transfers this heat to a non radioactive water loop which then becomes steam to drive turbines which generate the electrical current.

How will a fusion reactor transfer it's energy to become electricity? It seems you can't run water thru the fusion chamber so I'm a little fuzzy on how the energy transfer takes place.

Well over the years I have played with this stuff with in the law as the law allows as a novice. I even put together a little website at http://reactor1967.fortunecity.com
Take it all with a grain of salt because I let my imagination go and had a lot of fun with that site. I still tried to put as much real information there as I could. I am a fan of the Focus fusion reactor. It converts its energy a little differently than using a closed water loop system. Since then I have become a fan of free energy. I dont beleive people should have to give up their life savings to pay energy bills or drive cars.

 

[origin]

Since then I have become a fan of free energy. I dont beleive people should have to give up their life savings to pay energy bills or drive cars

.

Somebody always has to pay.

 

[EarthlingX]

Since then I have become a fan of free energy. I dont beleive people should have to give up their life savings to pay energy bills or drive cars

.

Somebody always has to pay.

We pay for the work done by other people, if i neglect stock acrobatics and other financial sports.

Believe it or not, unfriendly reality doesn't care, you have to pay for the things you get from other people, this way or another - it is what connects us, makes us inter-related, globally.

Do you know how to make your shoes ?

Maybe, one day, with a lots of robotics, cheap energy and such. Some of this might be pretty soon, sans cheap energy, that is.

 

[Tritium]

I still want to get a "pistol shrimp"and observe,dissect ...a little creature within the sea can snap it's claw,and generate a collapsing bubble,which causes a ball of plasma=to the heat we are looking for in a fusion reactor,only it too,is extremely transitory. Maybe some mechanical device which could repeat the snap fast enough to heat a quantity of water into useable steam?

 

[origin]

I still want to get a "pistol shrimp"and observe,dissect ...a little creature within the sea can snap it's claw,and generate a collapsing bubble,which causes a ball of plasma=to the heat we are looking for in a fusion reactor,only it too,is extremely transitory. Maybe some mechanical device which could repeat the snap fast enough to heat a quantity of water into useable steam?

I would assume that it would be a waste of energy; instead of expending the energy on a mechanical device why not use the energy directly to create steam with out the 'middle man'.

 

[js117]

New project aims for fusion ignition.
MIT-led Ignitor reactor could be the world’s first to reach major milestone, perhaps paving the way for eventual power production.

Russia and Italy have entered into an agreement to build a new fusion reactor outside Moscow that could become the first such reactor to achieve ignition,

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2010/fusi ... -0510.html

 

[Couerl]

We orbit the biggest, most efficient and stable fusion reactor we could ever want or need.. Trying to duplicate miniature versions here on Earth may amount to nothing more than the infamous 20 years away indefinately. An engineering solution to converting the sun's energy in to useable electricity could be the only real ticket off this planet. Stations in orbit around the sun perhaps as close as Mercury could generate limitless amounts of energy and then transmit it to orbiting satelites around the Earth and finally to the surface for consumption. Of-course this is not a new idea, but it does take much of the R&D needed to make a working sun on the surface of the Earth and place it where it could actually do some good..

 

[nimbus]

Is there a paper out there that formulates exactly how it's impossible for any fusion reactor to work?

 

[MeteorWayne]

It's not impossible...it will work in 20 years or so...