science fiction vs fantasy

[Bflowing]

Where is the line drawn, or is a line drawn at all?&nbsp; Lord of the Rings is lumped into the science fiction sections of libraries.&nbsp; And if we talk about science, what kind of science?&nbsp; How about History, specifically alternative history.&nbsp; If the South won the war( such as in Turtledove's novels), is it science fiction? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<p>I don't think there is a sharp boundary.</p><p>After all, Star Trek is supposedly SF, but with faster than flight travel and communications, AI,&nbsp;time travel, the genesis device,&nbsp;teleoportation, sex and procreation with aliens it is pure fantasy with little if any science.</p><p>Jon</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[kelvinzero]

<p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Science_fiction_genres</p><p>Unfortunately very little SF tries to be plausible. Come to think of it, I think my first post on this site was whingeing that there&nbsp;was no&nbsp;hard-SF tv series set in just this solar system.</p>

 

[lildreamer]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Science_fiction_genresUnfortunately very little SF tries to be plausible. Come to think of it, I think my first post on this site was whingeing that there&nbsp;was no&nbsp;hard-SF tv series set in just this solar system. <br />Posted by kelvinzero</DIV><br /><br />What about the short lived 2 season series Star Hunter - on the Space Channel... http://www.spacecast.com/shows_Star_Hunter.aspx&nbsp; "The year is 2275. Earth has more or less successfully colonized the <strong>entire solar system</strong>. But our reach has surpassed our grasp. Bounty Hunter Dante Montana and his small crew of social misfits take their aging hunter ship, Tulip, on the trail of dangerous interplanetary criminals"</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>but getting back to the OP - they are &nbsp;both interchangeable -&nbsp;really - as soon as you can connect Dragons as reptile mutations through a global&nbsp;nuclear holocaust.&nbsp;&nbsp;Living Dead, zombies and Ghouls due to&nbsp;genetic manipulation gone mad..then there really is no separation. Same goes for Elves and other "magical" folks...Wizard with his words of power is really manipulating magnetic field lines through harmonic sonic distortions etc etc etc......</p><p>Hard sci-fi would be I guess IMO something along 10 or 20 years ahead&nbsp;of our time line technology wise.&nbsp; Where the technology seems more palatable and plausible but not too incredible so that its not creditable. But the term Sci-fi really when you look at it means science that is fictional - not real make believe, a fantasy so to speak.</p><p>at least that my $0.02&nbsp; <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /></p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[kelvinzero]

<p>I really should dig that starhunter up. Sounds like fun in any case </p><p>Another similar one is the anime Cowboy Bebop. Also bountyhunters set in just this solar system.</p><p>I still enjoy fantastical SF but I think there is a real shortage of SF in the average bookshop that actually thrills you with the realisation that it is achievable.</p>

 

[Bflowing]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Science_fiction_genresUnfortunately very little SF tries to be plausible. Come to think of it, I think my first post on this site was whingeing that there&nbsp;was no&nbsp;hard-SF tv series set in just this solar system. <br />Posted by kelvinzero</DIV><br /><br />Thanks for the reference.&nbsp; And you're right, too many tv shows and films try to liven it up with implausible scenes.&nbsp; Actually, its sort of a problem with all tv series.</p><p>You don't see much new SF involving our own solar system.&nbsp; With all the exploration that has and is going on, its hard to come up with other life in our solar system.</p><p>The way to do it, is create an alternative universe which has such life and go from there.&nbsp;&nbsp;S.M Sterling did that, and it worked fine.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Where is the line drawn, or is a line drawn at all?&nbsp; Lord of the Rings is lumped into the science fiction sections of libraries.&nbsp; And if we talk about science, what kind of science?&nbsp; How about History, specifically alternative history.&nbsp; If the South won the war( such as in Turtledove's novels), is it science fiction? <br /> Posted by Bflowing</DIV></p><p>Traditionally, "Science Fiction" concerns previously unrealized technological advancements.&nbsp; However, that can take many forms.&nbsp; Something like "1984" for instance revolves mostly on the social implications of somewhat advanced, yet not unique, technology.&nbsp; Yet, it is generally regarded as "Science Fiction."&nbsp; "Animal Farm" sometimes get classified as science fiction simply because it is applying known socio-political factors in a "new" way - in animals.&nbsp; Yet, because there is no mechanism present to describe these animals' cognizant ability it would seem to be more properly classified as a fantasy.</p><p>That's a distinctive component - Mechanisms.&nbsp; Both Fantasy and Sci-Fi revolve around their respective mechanisms for introducing new elements for the plot/characters/whatever to revolve around.&nbsp; Science Fiction attempts to explain these new elements using technological advancements or known science and some creative deductions or assumptions.&nbsp; Fantasy, on the other hand, usually attributes something to "magic" or "fantastical worlds" and myths that describe them like fairies, goblins, pantheons of gods, etc..</p><p>In Science Fiction, a techno-mage's staff is comprised of rare elements and advanced technology which enable him to call upon vast powers of nanotech aided technological gimcrackery in order to perform his feats. </p><p>In Fantasy, a wizard's staff is comprised of the wood of the mystical World Tree, cut from it by a daring and fantasticalishly wonderful hero <span class="postbody">"..<em>who came out of the dark places; out of the howling mists; out of the lands without sun; out of Ghonorea came tall Catharz, with the moody sword Oakslayer in his right hand, the cursed spear Bloodlicker in his left hand, the evil bow Deathsinger on his back together with his quiver of fearful rune-fletched arrows, Heartseeker, Goregreedy, Soulsnatcher, Orphanmaker, Eyeblinder, Sorrowsower, Beanslicer and several others</em>...."(A passage from Michael Moorcock's humorous short-story, "The Stone Thing")&nbsp; Aided by such a magically infused piece of lumber, the wizard is able to call upon the powers of the World Tree itself!</span></p><p>Yet, there are certainly areas where the two styles blend so as to become almost unrecognizable as being separate.&nbsp; For instance, there are many stories which combine the two genre's.&nbsp; In this case, usually, if the story is based more on "technology" or takes place in a technologically heavy mileu, it is classed as Science Fiction.&nbsp; If the mileu is more influenced by fantasy-like elements or is a simply a natural setting (like a medieval backdrop with very low tech) on which more fantastical elements paint the story, it's Fantasy.&nbsp; So, not only are the major plot elements important but, the milieu (setting) is just as important in defining what type of story it is. </p><p>Here's one:</p><p>Is Star Wars "Fantasy" or "Science Fiction?"&nbsp; There's a lot in there regarding "The Force."&nbsp; (Just consider the story before Lucas went all batty with blood-born pathogens.)&nbsp; But, there's a good deal about the light-sabres and Death Stars as well.</p><p>Now, all of the techno-gimcrackery stuff in Star Wars really doesn't have a lot to do with the plot.&nbsp; The Death Star and it's big Death Ray is certainly a main element though.&nbsp; Everything <strong>else</strong> could just as easily be represented by guys riding horses and swinging swords, bending bows and manning siege engines and storming the castle.&nbsp; Which is exactly what the original story was trying to convey to begin with - A traditional save the princess hero-guy with a magic sword tale, wizards included.&nbsp; Even the "Evil Wizard" (Darth Vader) was there...&nbsp; If he had been a woman, he would have been the "Wicked Witch." &nbsp; Nothing else in the story revolves exclusively around the technology like the Death Star and, to a certain extent, the lightsabres.</p><p>The milieu is important in Star Wars.&nbsp; It's not important to the story but, it's important to the "scope" and feel of the story.&nbsp; The milieu isn't just a countryside in some far away medieval land where a guy named Ivanhoe lives...&nbsp; It's "Worlds" and bajillions of living humans and aliens in a huge empire where their actions effect an entire galaxy!&nbsp; They fly in space-ships and use advanced tech that is beyond explanation (almost magical). </p><p>So, Star Wars is probably best described as Sci-Fi.&nbsp; In Star Wars, it isn't the main story-elements that really defines it as science fiction like, for instance, War of the Worlds.&nbsp; It is the milieu it is constructed on top of that really defines it.&nbsp; Star Wars is actually called a "Space Opera" because of it's huge setting, number of characters and complex interactions with large forces both social and military, etc..&nbsp; </p><p>Star Wars could be told as a Fantasy tale just as easily as a Science Fiction one if it wasn't for the mileu.&nbsp; IMO, that puts Star Wars pretty much right on the border between Sci-Fi and Fantasy with the really defining factor being the milieu.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Sorry for the length of the post.&nbsp; But, it's really sometimes hard to nail down and not always obvious.&nbsp; The best way to look at a story and judge it is how the author introduces main story elements or what mechanisms they use to explain things - If they use "magic" then it's fantasy.&nbsp; If they use "Science" then its Sci-Fi.&nbsp; When you can't tell the difference, then look at the setting. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[kelvinzero]

<p>When I say I like hard-sf, I would actually prefer it was not the subject of the story. For that I would much prefer a documentary with special effects, such as "Mars Underground."</p><p>I dont think that the science was the most memorable part of Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars series for example. What came through for me was his experience with cold inhospitable envronments and the richness of his characters and history. Being&nbsp;plausible just added an extra thrill on top of this.</p>

 

[kelvinzero]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Thanks for the reference.&nbsp; And you're right, too many tv shows and films try to liven it up with implausible scenes.&nbsp; Actually, its sort of a problem with all tv series.You don't see much new SF involving our own solar system.&nbsp; With all the exploration that has and is going on, its hard to come up with other life in our solar system.The way to do it, is create an alternative universe which has such life and go from there.&nbsp;&nbsp;S.M Sterling did that, and it worked fine. <br />Posted by Bflowing</DIV></p><p>But we dont even need that. We could easily set a hard-sf space opera in this system. Picture this:</p><ul><li>hundreds or thousands&nbsp;of colonies within this system made possible by an exponential growth of industry.</li><li>Architecture with arching roofs tens of kilometers high, made possible by the low gravity of ceres (%3), the moon (1/6th) and all the other worlds.</li><li>Orbital loops and Space solar power rings that transform the appearance of our earth and&nbsp;moon.</li><li>Travel times as short as hours or days between some colonies ( orbitals in Cis-lunar space, the moons of gas giants, and between cycler cities and the worlds on their routes )</li><li>Travel times of months and even years between far flung civilisations, such as the earth-moon system and its orbitals (produced from lunar materials), The mars system including phobos and demios derived orbitals, the colonies on the icy worlds of saturn, the immensely distant kupier belt colonies.</li><li>A divergent human species and culture. Democracies, corporations and monachies. Space adapted humans, water breathing humans. AI.</li><li>More biodiversity than could ever exist in one period on earth. The resurrection of lost epochs in their own O'Neilian habitats.</li><li>And you dont ever really know what is out there. Colonies that choose not to communicate, that no one visits,&nbsp;or that suddenly stop communicating for no reason. colonies that suddenly start communicating again years later&nbsp;but everyone is smiling a little too much <br /><br /></li></ul>

 

[nimbus]

<p>I have a hard time picturing HardSF in our solar system and in the near future that doesnt involve war.&nbsp; It's just too easy to conceal weapons in space, and we are already too hard pressed to keep peace on this small and interdependent planet. Allowing populations to go off on their tangents (sects, religious extremists, activist pests like greenpeace, etc) cultures in the extreme seclusion of outer space is... just begging for trouble.&nbsp; I have a hard time getting my head around all the possibilities of e.g. a Mars 'ranch' in the wilderness that could be realisticaly (enough for hard SF) depicted as safe. The only setup I've come up with (and I admit Im not very educated on the subject) is an expansive&nbsp;no man's land / killzone littered (as necessary) with&nbsp;surveillance, that cant be breached without the ranch owner's permission.. And even that is easy to bypass.</p><p>Fly to some distant point. Drop a weapon in standby. Fly off to&nbsp;a totaly different spot. Activate weapon, let it fly in at the ranch at a huge speed and do corresponding damage from kinetic/explosive/chemical/whatever. Little chance to intercept that, as far as I can see. <br />A great setting for piracy to re-emerge as a viable lifestyle.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Bflowing]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>When I say I like hard-sf, I would actually prefer it was not the subject of the story. For that I would much prefer a documentary with special effects, such as "Mars Underground."I dont think that the science was the most memorable part of Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars series for example. What came through for me was his experience with cold inhospitable envronments and the richness of his characters and history. Being&nbsp;plausible just added an extra thrill on top of this. <br />Posted by kelvinzero</DIV><br /><br />Yes, you can have a "Little House on the Martian Prairie".&nbsp; Create an economic and political milieu for it and of course, exceptional writing and it could work.&nbsp;But please, keep out the aliens or ancient Martian artifacts!&nbsp; Each week would feature an obstacle that could only be found on Mars.&nbsp; <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Bflowing]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I have a hard time picturing HardSF in our solar system and in the near future that doesnt involve war.&nbsp; It's just too easy to conceal weapons in space, and we are already too hard pressed to keep peace on this small and interdependent planet. Allowing populations to go off on their tangents (sects, religious extremists, activist pests like greenpeace, etc) cultures in the extreme seclusion of outer space is... just begging for trouble.&nbsp; I have a hard time getting my head around all the possibilities of e.g. a Mars 'ranch' in the wilderness that could be realisticaly (enough for hard SF) depicted as safe. The only setup I've come up with (and I admit Im not very educated on the subject) is an expansive&nbsp;no man's land / killzone littered (as necessary) with&nbsp;surveillance, that cant be breached without the ranch owner's permission.. And even that is easy to bypass.Fly to some distant point. Drop a weapon in standby. Fly off to&nbsp;a totaly different spot. Activate weapon, let it fly in at the ranch at a huge speed and do corresponding damage from kinetic/explosive/chemical/whatever. Little chance to intercept that, as far as I can see. A great setting for piracy to re-emerge as a viable lifestyle. <br />Posted by nimbus</DIV><br /><br />Sigh, if a pastoral type series doesn't work, there is always action.&nbsp; Yes, pirates, rival colonies, big corporations vs small colonialists... </p><p>A big rock, with its kinetic energy is a very good weapon.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[TSS]

RE: SF vs Fantasy?

First of all, the very question is wrong, because there is a distinct difference between "speculative fiction" or SF (see Sphere, The Abyss, Deep Impact, etc.) and "science fiction" or Sci-Fi (see Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5, etc.). While SF is considered to be "most likely plausible" and "near-future reality," the traditional Sci-Fi is "most likely implausible" and far-fetched imagination, including elements of fantasy and even human mythology. According to Isaac Asimov, Sci-Fi is Gozila-type phantasms, even if written to entertain us with the seriousness of Star-Wars-like aliens. Nonetheless, most likely such worlds DO NOT exist even in a galaxy far, far away. Sci-Fi is more entertaining, but SF, according to Asimov, is "more science than fiction," i.e., it's a historic foresight of the very possible future, called "futuristic prognostication" or "scientific futurism" and simply "fiction futurology," etc.

That said, there is a whole sub-genre, nicknamed "space fantasy" (see Farscape, The 5th Element, Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda, etc.), which includes everything possible and impossible, incl. space dragons, mythological aliens, alien religions (very earthly, alas), cyberpunk, and comic book's superheroes that behave quite earthly and not at all alien :mrgreen:

Hope this helps.

SCI-FI ALMANAC (SFA)
Bob Bello, Editor-in-Chief
http://scifialmanac.ning.com

 

[weeman]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Where is the line drawn, or is a line drawn at all?&nbsp; Lord of the Rings is lumped into the science fiction sections of libraries.&nbsp; And if we talk about science, what kind of science?&nbsp; How about History, specifically alternative history.&nbsp; If the South won the war( such as in Turtledove's novels), is it science fiction? <br />Posted by Bflowing</DIV><br /><br />I don't think there's much of a boundry at all, I'd say it's personal preference! I have my personal method of categorizing Science Fiction and Fantasy. IMO, movies/books like Lord of the Rings, Narnia, the Neverending Story, etc are all fantasy. And movies like Star Wars, Star Trek, the Matrix, War of the Worlds are all science fiction. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Techies: We do it in the dark. </font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>"Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.</strong><strong>" -Albert Einstein </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[Bflowing]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>First of all, the very question is wrong, because there is a distinct difference between "speculative fiction" or SF (Sphere, The Abyss, Deep Impact, etc.) and "science fiction" Sci-Fi (Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5, etc.). While SF is considered to be "most likely plausible" visions about the future, Sci-Fi is "most likely implausible" imaginations, with elements of "human fantasy" included in it already. According to Isaac Asimov, Sci-Fi is Gozila-type phantasms, even if written to entertain us with the seriousness of Star-Wars-like aliens, simply because "most likely" such worlds DO NOT exist even in a galaxy far, far away. Sci-Fi is more entertaining, but SF, according to Asimov, is "more science and less fiction," i.e., a historic peek into the possible future, called "futuristic prognostication," etc.That said, there is a whole sub-genre, nicknamed "sci-fantasy," or at times SFF (Farscape, 5th Element, Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda, etc.), which includes everything possible and impossible, plus human-like (or call it terrestrial) mythology, dragons, alien religions (very earthly, alas!), cyberpunk, and comics book superheroes that behave non-alien at all!If you want to find more about that, visit Space Art Network, at http://spaceart.ning.com/ and see our academic and official critic's about SF/sci-fi/fantasy or space art itself. Godspeed! <br />Posted by TSS</DIV><br /><br />Interesting.&nbsp; Very similar to people who refer it as Science Fiction vs Sci-Fi, where Science Fiction is more science orientated and plausible and Sci-Fi is Hollywood.</p><p>The problem with writing fiction that may seem to be plausible in near future, is science may take a giant leap and leave the story old fashion and archaic.&nbsp; Consider the stories of Jules Verne and H.G. Wells.&nbsp; Both wrote about a trip to the moon.&nbsp; Verne tried to be more scientific and used a cannon to fire a ship to the moon.&nbsp; (Later, of course, science realized it should have been the cannon that went to the moon.)&nbsp; Wells, simply came up with an anti-gravity device which, who knows, may still be plausible/</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[kelvinzero]

<p>I actually love reading that old stuff, especially what was actually considered reasonable at a certain point in history.</p><p>It is sometimes surprising what we knew when, for example I think we understood and could calculate habitable zones and debated their meaning&nbsp;long before we had any idea how a sun works. It makes sense in hindsight, I suppose.</p>

 

[nimbus]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Sigh, if a pastoral type series doesn't work, there is always action.&nbsp; Yes, pirates, rival colonies, big corporations vs small colonialists... A big rock, with its kinetic energy is a very good weapon. <br />Posted by Bflowing</DIV><br />Sigh?&nbsp; I just think it's hard to believe it wouldnt/wont happen. I'd have trouble feeling immersed in a universe that didnt have it.. Not that the story would have to focus on it, either. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...If you want to find more about that, visit Space Art Network, at http://spaceart.ning.com/ and see our academic and official critic's about SF/sci-fi/fantasy or space art itself. Godspeed! Posted by TSS</DIV></p><p>Great post and wonderful link!&nbsp; Thanks!&nbsp; There are some good discussions going on over there! </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>