Shuttle_guy questions....

[propforce]

<i><font color="yellow">... worked the Purge Vent and Drain system on the Saturn Five second stage and cross trained in the insilation repair and structures area. ......... Then Back to KSC as a Shuttle OMS/RCS systems engineer. I was drafted into the original Test Project Engineering group in 1979. There were 7 of us. Three are still in the group. ....</font>/i><br /><br />Alright, another prop-guy !! <<thumbs up!! />> <img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" /><br /><br /><i><font color="yellow">.....Hi all, I have been in Houston all week on a project that I can not talk about. ...... This is something else and it is REALLY BIG. If Kerry had won this project would have been DOA but as it is getting Start. ...</font>/i><br /><br />I can just imagine !! Expecting some contract awards early next week... then some more teaming news between now till early next year... keeping all our fingers crossed.<br /><br /><br /></i></i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[earth_bound_misfit]

Hi SG, I'm just wondering whats with wearing the jacket in that pic up there?<br />I thought it never gets cold in Florida?<br />Also hows the lady friend going? Alls good I hope. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p>----------------------------------------------------------------- </p><p>Wanna see this site looking like the old SDC uplink?</p><p>Go here to see how: <strong>SDC Eye saver </strong>  </p> </div>

 

[shuttle_rtf]

SG you rock. Permission to chair the UK SGIC branch? Also, permission to shake your hand when I come over for STS-114 - if you get time. Staying with another USA guy, you guys have much more passion than some of the "suits" in DC.<br /><br />*Homer voice* hmmmmm, secret projects. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[wvbraun]

"huh Really big and not the CEV....."<br /><br />It's too early to start work on anything directly associated with Moon missions (lunar lander, injection stage,...). My guess is the project he is working on is a shuttle derived HLLV.

 

[crix]

Agreed, but somehow "REALLY BIG" says to me that this may be more than just a Shuttle-C... but Shuttle-C WOULD be pretty frickin' big!<br /><br />Shuttle_guy, I made that comment because I anticipate a shuttle-based architecture to be similarly expensive to the shuttle. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[halman]

crix,<br /><br />My impression is that the orbiter is the money hole, due to the man-hour intensive process of maintaining the Thermal Protection System. Rebuilding the engines is standardized procedures, I would imagine, which probably have been streamlined due to experience. But every tile on each shuttle is unique, and an exact duplicate must be hand made when replacement is done. If the shuttle-C is made expendable, the cost will plummet, I think.<br /><br />Launch costs would come down drastically for any standardized, mass-produced launch vehicle. It is like comparing a Ford and a Ferrari. Even if a production line only produces 5 units a year, it is still going to be cheaper than producing individualized units on demand. And you can be sure that payloads will be found for every launcher, budget permitting. Wouldn't it be wonderful to launch a deep space probe directly to its destination, instead of having to spend years monitoring it while it plays cosmic billiards? It might even be cheaper in the long run, as mission times measured in years mean mission control times measured in years. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>

 

[propforce]

<font color="yellow"><i> My impression is that the orbiter is the money hole..... If the shuttle-C is made expendable, the cost will plummet, I think. ... </i></font><br /><br />If the Shuttle-C is made expendable, then the "new orbiter" would not look anything like the orbiter today. A list of things can be eliminated are:<br /><br /><ol type="1"><li> No more thermal protection tiles<li> No need for wings and vertical stabilizer<li> No need for landing gears<li> No need for the cockpit<li> No need for the life support system<li> No need for bathroom !<br /></li></li></li></li></li></li></ol><br />As a matter of fact the "new" orbiter can look like one giant cylinder! <br /><br />Now the question would by why should one still use the existing configuration, e.g., making a cargo pod attached to the ET like the current orbiter would? It creates more aerodynamic drags, required a beefier attachement due to the lateral thrust loads to the vehicle structures. <br /><br />It would make more sense to build a simple giant cyclindrical structure incorporating the ET (no longer need to be "external"), the engine below the tanks, and the payload above.<br /><br />The SRB will change as well<br /><ol type="1"><li> No longer required to be "reusable", so no recovery is necessary. <li> The beefy external motorcase is no longer required, a lighter composite casing will be adequate. <li> No stacking of SRB required. <br /></li></li></li></ol><br />Another word, the new "Shuttle-C" configuration would look like one giant Delta-IV Heavy/ Atlas V-Heavy, but with the SRB strap-on instead. <br /><br />So what part of "shuttle-heritage" would be worth keeping ???<br /><br />KSC and JSC employment should be reduced by 75% if counting on launching the Shuttle-C alone ! <img src="/images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <br /><br />But we all know that's not going to happen.....<br /><br /><font color="yellow"><i> Launch costs would come down drastically for any standardized, mass-produced launch vehicle.</i></font><br /><br />You me <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Astrosag]

If you don't mind me asking Shuttle_guy, what degrees do you hold and where did you study?...just very curious...thank you.

 

[rocketwatcher2001]

I'd like to sign up. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Astrosag]

Very cool..thanks. 5 year degree eh? thats how it is at my school as well...our "4+1" blended B.S-M.S. program is really a 5 +2 year program...haha. Any advice for prospective grad school students? I am a junior in aerospace engineering in california.

 

[Astrosag]

I do hope so. I was lucky enough to get an internship last summer at Boeing and have been given the opportunity to go back. But my main goal is to get some research experience (both to help me decide whether a research oriented career is what i want and for grad school). Coming from a primarily undergraduate university, research is hard to come by so I have to look outside of the university...possibly at Boeing or NSF (National Science Foundation). Thanks for answering my questions though. Also, just to be clear, you work for NASA now, right? (I thought maybe for Boeing or Lockheed under USA - United Space Alliance)

 

[SpaceKiwi]

Seeing as how the Florida Bureau is in their scheduled sleep period right now, and the NZ Bureau is still open for business, I'll take a crack at answering that question!<br /><br />I'm pretty sure SG is on the USA payroll. His office is obviously on site at KSC though. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><font size="2" color="#ff0000">Who is this superhero?  Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!</font></em></p><p><em><font size="2">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</font></em></p><p><font size="5">Bring Back The Black!</font></p> </div>

 

[mrmorris]

Question for SG. How exactly do the astronauts enter the orbiter and get into their seats for a shuttle launch? <br /><br />Background for why I'm asking & what I'm looking for... <br /><br />I'm still spending *way* too much time on my mental excercise for a modern Gemini on the thread in B&T. I have a cabin arranged similar to a small plane (very similar to the Cessna Citation-Mustang -- except all seats facing forward). So the craft has six seats with a small aisle between them, and I'm thinking -- how in the world do you get into that when the whole sucker is tipped vertically? I've got this vision of having to be a mountain climber to make it to the pilot's chair...<br /><br />I figured the orbiters probably have a similar issue. However -- I'm not even positive from Googling around where the positions for liftoff *are* on the shuttle. The commander and pilot's positions are obvious, but the mission specialist seats in all the diagrams I've seen are facing the wrong direction for liftoff (I assume they can be re-oriented and locked in a forward-facing position).<br />

 

[najab]

><i>I'm pretty sure SG is on the USA payroll. His office is obviously on site at KSC though.</i><p>100% correct. His (USA <b>not</b> NASA) office is a couple hundred metres from the OPF buildings.</p>

 

[najab]

><i>Question for SG. How exactly do the astronauts enter the orbiter and get into their seats for a shuttle launch?</i><p>The seats are all forward facing and the crew access hatch is on the mid-deck. This means that as they step into the orbiter they are walking on the aft-bulkhead, the same surface as the airlock entrance. The flight-deck crew (CDR, PLT, MS1, MS2) have to clamber through the hatch in the flight deck floor and then get into their seats. The CDR and PLT are helped by the closeout crew to pull themselves up into their seats (please don't use the RHC as a climbing aid <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />), the two other flight-deck crew members don't have a big climb.<p>The mid-deck crew take their seats after, typically they will be three-abreast in seats that fit close to the aft bulkhead. This means they don't have to lift themselves into their seats. The close-out crew helps them to strap in as well, and also make sure that everyone is wired in to the intercom and life support systems and has their parachute on securely.</p></p>

 

[CalliArcale]

I seem to recall reading/hearing that there is a panel placed over the opening of the little bitty restroom cubicle that they have to stand on in order to get into their seats, as well as a panel over the gap where the airlock used to be before the ODS was installed, so nobody falls into the back of the vehicle and can't climb out, and that these panels are removed prior to launch. But my brain might be inventing things. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[najab]

Yup. There are panels placed over the payload bay windows and any other sensitive bits (not sure about the toilet though) so that they don't get damaged. The closeout crew removes them just before launch - they mentioned that during the coverage of the last launch I watched.

 

[CalliArcale]

Additionally, they can install special recumbent couches for returning ISS crew in the middeck when they're getting ready to deorbit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[steve82]

" Any advice for prospective grad school students? "<br /><br />Yes. Stay in school! By that I mean go to grad school full time and finish your MS before you join the work force. The aerospace ranks are filled with almost-PhD's and near-MS's who "only have a couple hours to go" or "Just have to finish my thesis" to get that degree and after they get out in the world and start working and maybe getting married etc. etc. find themselves with a whole new set of responsibilities that puts the thesis on the back burner. They never finish. I've seen it happen time and time again.

 

[farmerman]

question for sg. I've been thinking about the foam that came off the external tank during columbia's launch and how to prevent this. Would wraping the exterior of the external tank with some form of netting to help keep the foam on? I know this adds weight. The netting would still allow the foam to gasout or vent during launch. Or what has nasa come up with to keep the foam on? I know the shuttle is expensive to maintain, but I've always tought it to be an amazing machine. The shuttle itself has never failed, the problem has always been some where other than the shuttle during launch.

 

[Astrosag]

Yeah, thats what i hear, not just in aerospace, but in engineering in general. This last summer at Boeing, most told me to finish grad school before going to the workforce. Companies like Boeing offer nice incentives to work there (like paying for grad school). But what most students dont realize is that with that deal, you have to attend school AND work 40 hours a week ( a collegue at Boeing was doing that). That not only limiits you to the immediate region in choosing schools, but also it'd be very hard to accomplish. At the same time though, having a company pay for your entire grad degree is nice too....so many choices!

 

[najab]

><i>Would wraping the exterior of the external tank with some form of netting to help keep the foam on? I know this adds weight.</i><p>And therein lies the main problem: since the ET goes to orbit, every pound of weight added to the ET is a pound less payload. Some of the ISS components are pretty close to the upmass limit (technically the downmass limit) of the Shuttle. Plus, it would be fairly hard to flight-qualify a netting since it has the potential to rip off and become a hazard itself.</p>

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Yeah, thats what i hear, not just in aerospace, but in engineering in general. This last summer at Boeing, most told me to finish grad school before going to the workforce. Companies like Boeing offer nice incentives to work there (like paying for grad school). But what most students dont realize is that with that deal, you have to attend school AND work 40 hours a week ( a collegue at Boeing was doing that). That not only limiits you to the immediate region in choosing schools, but also it'd be very hard to accomplish. At the same time though, having a company pay for your entire grad degree is nice too....so many choices!<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Well, it was a major draw for my husband in choosing our place of employment. (And I'm glad he did, because this is where we met. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) He actually started as an intern while he was working on his bachelor's degree at the University of Minnesota. After he graduated, he was hired on as a regular employee, and the company is paying for his grad program. The drawback is that he could only take two classes at a time even before we met (partly due to time limitations, but also because the company would only pay for two at a time, probably knowing that there's a limit to what a person can reasonably accomplish). Now that we have a kid, he can only manage one class at a time. He's on his last course now, so he'll get his master's degree this winter.<br /><br />One thing to be aware of, though, is that many companies will limit the number of course hours they'll pay for in a semester, and that they may only pay if you get grades above a certain level or maintain a specified GPA. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[SpaceKiwi]

I've favoured shrink-wrapping the ET myself but, as najaB said, it's primarily a weight consideration when every pound counts against the potential payload size.<br /><br />IIRC they did paint the first few tanks. I also saw an item locally here about Air New Zealand painting several of its jets with Lord Of The Rings characters for promotional purposes on international routes. I forget the exact weight that added to each aircraft, but it was an eyebrow raiser. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><font size="2" color="#ff0000">Who is this superhero?  Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!</font></em></p><p><em><font size="2">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</font></em></p><p><font size="5">Bring Back The Black!</font></p> </div>

 

[farmerman]

To me it's a weight vs. safety issue. I remember watching a documentry on the shuttle and it said that it took 500 lbs of paint to paint the tank. The two toughest forces on the netting would be ice buildup and the launch and probably the combination of the two. Does anyone know what part of the tank the foam came off? Maybe only the upper half of the tank has to be addressed.