Solar System Mining

[EarthlingX]

Interesting idea Tritium, any good links for deep sea mining? I'm currently working with deep ocean currents and bedforms, so this concept is pretty interesting. If we can learn to mine on the ocean floor, I don't see any reason we couldn't mine on the surface of any planet in the solar system.

This might help :

Wiki : Deep sea mining

Deep sea mining is a relatively new mineral retrieval process that takes place on the ocean floor. Ocean mining sites are usually around large areas of polymetallic nodules or active and extinct hydrothermal vents at about 1,400 - 3,700 meters below the ocean’s surface.[1] The vents create sulfide deposits, which contain precious metals such as silver, gold, copper, manganese, cobalt, and zinc.[2][3] The deposits are mined using either hydraulic pumps or bucket systems that take ore to the surface to be processed. As with all mining operations, deep sea mining raises questions about environmental damages to the surrounding areas.

example, not a real thing though : Hughes Mining Barge

and this is a bit related, from Wiki :

• Barge

  Barges are also used for very heavy or bulky items; a typical barge measures 195 by 35 feet (~ 60 m × 11 m )

  = 6825 (~ 634 m[super]2[/super])
• Oil tanker
• TI class supertankers
• Bulk Carrier

Just some playing with numbers : 300 m x 40 m = 120 000 m[super]2[/super] ( ~1 291 670 ft[super]2[/super] )

I think, i saw some plans for a mobile barge, rather huge ..

Link is gravity tractor, ISRU, and perhaps in-space production, with something like Injection molding machines, robotics, high ISP propulsion, and cheap access to LEO, at least.

It starts with low entry prices for microgravity experiments, and public access to results, i think.

 

[halman]

Seems to me that development of robots for mining work should be a priority right now, considering how dangerous coal mining is. A robot is expensive to develop and purchase, but telepresence might help to reduce the software development costs. We talk about using robots to mine in space, yet we are not even doing that here on Earth, even though many people die in coal mines every year. China has mines that make the worst American mines look like resorts. They just lost over 100 miners in a fire about a month ago.

 

[HopDavid]

Seems to me that development of robots for mining work should be a priority right now, considering how dangerous coal mining is. A robot is expensive to develop and purchase, but telepresence might help to reduce the software development costs. We talk about using robots to mine in space, yet we are not even doing that here on Earth, even though many people die in coal mines every year. China has mines that make the worst American mines look like resorts. They just lost over 100 miners in a fire about a month ago.

At about the same time you posted this, I made a similar post in another forum.

At first I was thinking "What a coincidence!".

But Cameron's Avatar has thrown the notion of telepresence into the limelight. I wouldn't be surprised if the NASA and GM Robonaut pages have been enjoying a lot more hits lately.

And underground mining is one of those hazardous occupations where using an early generation of teleoperated robots might make economic sense.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot more people than you and I have independently arrived at that observation.

 

[Valcan]

It sounds great until you realise that the robots would cost far, far, far more and put most of those coal miners if not all out of work. It also might end up so expensive we stop completely.

 

[EarthlingX]

It sounds great until you realise that the robots would cost far, far, far more and put most of those coal miners if not all out of work. It also might end up so expensive we stop completely.

Perhaps we should stick with manual manufacturing - that would open a lot of jobs. Or did the industrial revolution happen sometime in the last couple of hundred years ?

Luddism sounds like a word worth explaining ...

 

[neutrino78x]

It sounds great until you realise that the robots would cost far, far, far more and put most of those coal miners if not all out of work. It also might end up so expensive we stop completely.

I don't see how robots could be more expensive than humans. They don't require food or oxygen or water or health care.

Also, any kind of economic activity in space should generate private sector jobs on Earth...

--Brian

 

[HopDavid]

It sounds great until you realise that the robots would cost far, far, far more and put most of those coal miners if not all out of work.

Ummmmm.... No.

You evidently don't know what teleoperated robots are.

A teleoperated robot needs a human operator.

There would still be workers. But they'd be working in comfort and safety instead of risking slow and painful death in a very hazardous environment.

This isn't something the unions would object to.

Telerobots would cost money. But so does funerals and compensation to widows and orphans.

 

[neutrino78x]

Exactly, I agree with HoppDavid.

--Brian

 

[EarthlingX]

Exactly, I agree with HoppDavid.

--Brian

Aye, me too. Very well said.

 

[Couerl]

Seems to me that development of robots for mining work should be a priority right now, considering how dangerous coal mining is. A robot is expensive to develop and purchase, but telepresence might help to reduce the software development costs. We talk about using robots to mine in space, yet we are not even doing that here on Earth, even though many people die in coal mines every year. China has mines that make the worst American mines look like resorts. They just lost over 100 miners in a fire about a month ago.

Yup, more robots, all controlled via X-Box. We need to put this generation of pot-smoking teenie-puppets to good use. :lol:

Problem is that underground mining makes keeping a signal to any given robot rather dificult and so we need to educate all of the enviro-extremists with common sense and go back to good old fashioned strip-mining. It's ridiculous that in this day and age that any person should die in a tunnel. :ugeek:

 

[HopDavid]

Seems to me that development of robots for mining work should be a priority right now, considering how dangerous coal mining is. A robot is expensive to develop and purchase, but telepresence might help to reduce the software development costs. We talk about using robots to mine in space, yet we are not even doing that here on Earth, even though many people die in coal mines every year. China has mines that make the worst American mines look like resorts. They just lost over 100 miners in a fire about a month ago.

Yup, more robots, all controlled via X-Box. We need to put this generation of pot-smoking teenie-puppets to good use. :lol:

I am hoping some of the kids proficient at manipulating virtual puppets in video games will have a useful application for their skills. To some extent, this is already coming to pass. I saw a U. S. Army commercial telling video game junkies they might do well in guiding UAVs.

Problem is that underground mining makes keeping a signal to any given robot rather dificult

Good point. Any telerobots operating via local wifi are vulnerable to shadows. Maybe a fiber optic line would be needed in many situations.

 

[Tritium]

Seems to me that development of robots for mining work should be a priority right now, considering how dangerous coal mining is. A robot is expensive to develop and purchase, but telepresence might help to reduce the software development costs. We talk about using robots to mine in space, yet we are not even doing that here on Earth, even though many people die in coal mines every year. China has mines that make the worst American mines look like resorts. They just lost over 100 miners in a fire about a month ago.

Yup, more robots, all controlled via X-Box. We need to put this generation of pot-smoking teenie-puppets to good use. :lol:

I am hoping some of the kids proficient at manipulating virtual puppets in video games will have a useful application for their skills. To some extent, this is already coming to pass. I saw a U. S. Army commercial telling video game junkies they might do well in guiding UAVs.

Problem is that underground mining makes keeping a signal to any given robot rather dificult

Good point. Any telerobots operating via local wifi are vulnerable to shadows. Maybe a fiber optic line would be needed in many situations.

A fiber optic line,or any other hard-wire would be difficult to keep out of the way.But the use of multiple microwave transmitters placed within the mine could relay the commands and telemetry to and from the surface,and use multiple frequency settings for each robotic unit to prevent interference.These units are small ,inexpensive devices which could be continuously added to a network within the mine,as the mine grew larger and deeper.The remotely operated machines would still require huge amounts of power.This is where small nuclear reactors which used a closed system steam turbine electric generators which then supplied power to powerful electric motors,which then drove the hydraulics and the cutting surfaces.I'm not quite sure how to cool these reactors other than some type of heat exchanger,and the absolute control of the rods within the core.I'm not sure that a "radiator"system could work,due to the large amount of coolant which has to pass over the primary reactor jacket.Hooking up to a water line implies the same line management problems associated with the fiber optic cable.I am trying to envision a completely untethered self sufficient machine,capable of mining deep within the Earth,or deep underwater,or in deep space.I keep thinking of nuclear powered subs,but I know that they have the benefit of an endless quantity of cold seawater to cool their reactor jackets.In deep space,the external temperatures might provide enough differential at first to operate a heat exchanger efficiently,but once the mine reaches a certain level on a planet with a molten core,temperatures rise,making heat exchange more difficult.Here on Earth,a diesel powered machine just needs air pumped down the shaft,and it can keep going,although it needs to be refueled often.And as far as that goes,everybody is too freaked out about the nuclear waste on Earth to allow us to use small reactor powered machines here.(Why can't we load the rods into a capsule-deemed safe,and send them into the sun?)

My congratulations to our little think-tank.

 

[EarthlingX]

I am hoping some of the kids proficient at manipulating virtual puppets in video games will have a useful application for their skills. To some extent, this is already coming to pass. I saw a U. S. Army commercial telling video game junkies they might do well in guiding UAVs.

A fiber optic line,or any other hard-wire would be difficult to keep out of the way.But the use of multiple microwave transmitters placed within the mine could relay the commands and telemetry to and from the surface,and use multiple frequency settings for each robotic unit to prevent interference.These units are small ,inexpensive devices which could be continuously added to a network within the mine,as the mine grew larger and deeper.The remotely operated machines would still require huge amounts of power.This is where small nuclear reactors which used a closed system steam turbine electric generators which then supplied power to powerful electric motors,which then drove the hydraulics and the cutting surfaces.I'm not quite sure how to cool these reactors other than some type of heat exchanger,and the absolute control of the rods within the core. I'm not sure that a "radiator"system could work,due to the large amount of coolant which has to pass over the primary reactor jacket.Hooking up to a water line implies the same line management problems associated with the fiber optic cable.I am trying to envision a completely untethered self sufficient machine,capable of mining deep within the Earth,or deep underwater,or in deep space.I keep thinking of nuclear powered subs,but I know that they have the benefit of an endless quantity of cold seawater to cool their reactor jackets.In deep space,the external temperatures might provide enough differential at first to operate a heat exchanger efficiently,but once the mine reaches a certain level on a planet with a molten core,temperatures rise,making heat exchange more difficult.Here on Earth,a diesel powered machine just needs air pumped down the shaft,and it can keep going,although it needs to be refueled often.And as far as that goes,everybody is too freaked out about the nuclear waste on Earth to allow us to use small reactor powered machines here.(Why can't we load the rods into a capsule-deemed safe,and send them into the sun?)

What about some heat engine, turbine, stirling engine ? Cool it down in steps through generators ? Is it too wrong kind of energy and can not be used ? I don't think so, not to mention it will take a while until anyone reaches molten core during mining operation.

My congratulations to our little think-tank.

It's not that hard when people use facts and logic, combined with knowledge and inspiration gained from debate.

 

[Tritium]

I am hoping some of the kids proficient at manipulating virtual puppets in video games will have a useful application for their skills. To some extent, this is already coming to pass. I saw a U. S. Army commercial telling video game junkies they might do well in guiding UAVs.

A fiber optic line,or any other hard-wire would be difficult to keep out of the way.But the use of multiple microwave transmitters placed within the mine could relay the commands and telemetry to and from the surface,and use multiple frequency settings for each robotic unit to prevent interference.These units are small ,inexpensive devices which could be continuously added to a network within the mine,as the mine grew larger and deeper.The remotely operated machines would still require huge amounts of power.This is where small nuclear reactors which used a closed system steam turbine electric generators which then supplied power to powerful electric motors,which then drove the hydraulics and the cutting surfaces.I'm not quite sure how to cool these reactors other than some type of heat exchanger,and the absolute control of the rods within the core. I'm not sure that a "radiator"system could work,due to the large amount of coolant which has to pass over the primary reactor jacket.Hooking up to a water line implies the same line management problems associated with the fiber optic cable.I am trying to envision a completely untethered self sufficient machine,capable of mining deep within the Earth,or deep underwater,or in deep space.I keep thinking of nuclear powered subs,but I know that they have the benefit of an endless quantity of cold seawater to cool their reactor jackets.In deep space,the external temperatures might provide enough differential at first to operate a heat exchanger efficiently,but once the mine reaches a certain level on a planet with a molten core,temperatures rise,making heat exchange more difficult.Here on Earth,a diesel powered machine just needs air pumped down the shaft,and it can keep going,although it needs to be refueled often.And as far as that goes,everybody is too freaked out about the nuclear waste on Earth to allow us to use small reactor powered machines here.(Why can't we load the rods into a capsule-deemed safe,and send them into the sun?)

What about some heat engine, turbine, stirling engine ? Cool it down in steps through generators ?

My congratulations to our little think-tank.

It's not that hard when people use facts and logic, combined with knowledge and inspiration gained from debate.

Please enlighten me about the various engines....

 

[EarthlingX]

That would be hard Wikipedia articles get sometimes updated though. Just in case, for me : Heat engine

Point is, if you know exactly what is the problem, you are close to half way to the solution, and experiments help.

If you create a communication grid, could you do something similar with the power ?

 

[Tritium]

That would be hard

Point is, if you know what exactly is the problem, you are close to half way to solution, and experiments help.

If you create communication grid, could you do something similar with the power ?

We are already on the verge of creating very large solar arrays in space,and beaming the collected energy down to our planet via microwave transmission.So,yes,theoretically,we could send the power down into the mines,the same wireless way(Tesla)and power the electric motors through microwave receiver converters/which we have been developing recently.One of the ideas for a money maker on the moon is to place huge solar collectors on the areas of the moon which receive the most continuous sunlight,up- converting this to a microwave beam,and transmitting the beam down to receiver/collector stations on Earth.

 

[Couerl]

Electric motors are powerful when they have the juice and solar is a good, simple option. No need to get fancy with nukes etc,.. The fanciness comes in terms of robotic equipment design and software and remote control ability. Assuming we could throw one or two box-cars worth of high-tech freight/equipment on the moon (a reasonable and doable amount) to set up our little theoretical mining operation, what essential tools would we need to get the job done? My particular vision has something like a bob-cat sized vehicle or small caterpillar that could drill, slice, dice and move rock at a reasonable pace and substantial amount. A mini-dump truck/plow to clear the rubble out of the way (material weighs less on the moon so a 1/6th scale version has the same work potential except in volume) and then perhaps a dozen other kinds of robots and remote controlled devices that could service the other vehicles and the mission itself. Some of these smaller specialized robots could operate hand tools and set up solar panels, provide energy to the heavy equipment, set explosive charges and connect wires and search for ore/water/mineral deposits and perform environmental sampling and pull the larger ones out of the muck if they get stuck etc.. etc.. Combine that with essential spare parts and materials needed to make the operation work such as solar panels, cables, wenches, cranes, gantry's and whatever else and perhaps the two containers sent up holding the equipment could serve as both processor and habitat/charging/repair station.. Eventually our little robots could carve out living space for human inhabitants and the operation could grow from there. The feasibility I think is close to here and now. What troubles me is that there doesn't seem to be any reason to justify the expense just yet. What the hell do we do with it once we mine and process the stuff? Last time i checked there was no one on the moon buying anything. :geek:

 

[Tritium]

Electric motors are powerful when they have the juice and solar is a good, simple option. No need to get fancy with nukes etc,.. The fanciness comes in terms of robotic equipment design and software and remote control ability. Assuming we could throw one or two box-cars worth of high-tech freight/equipment on the moon (a reasonable and doable amount) to set up our little theoretical mining operation, what essential tools would we need to get the job done? My particular vision has something like a bob-cat sized vehicle or small caterpillar that could drill, slice, dice and move rock at a reasonable pace and substantial amount. A mini-dump truck/plow to clear the rubble out of the way (material weighs less on the moon so a 1/6th scale version has the same work potential except in volume) and then perhaps a dozen other kinds of robots and remote controlled devices that could service the other vehicles and the mission itself. Some of these smaller specialized robots could operate hand tools and set up solar panels, provide energy to the heavy equipment, set explosive charges and connect wires and search for ore/water/mineral deposits and perform environmental sampling and pull the larger ones out of the muck if they get stuck etc.. etc.. Combine that with essential spare parts and materials needed to make the operation work such as solar panels, cables, wenches, cranes, gantry's and whatever else and perhaps the two containers sent up holding the equipment could serve as both processor and habitat/charging/repair station.. Eventually our little robots could carve out living space for human inhabitants and the operation could grow from there. The feasibility I think is close to here and now. What troubles me is that there doesn't seem to be any reason to justify the expense just yet. What the hell do we do with it once we mine and process the stuff? Last time i checked there was no one on the moon buying anything. :geek:

Lots of Helium and Helium 3.Not to mention plenty of oxygen from water at the pole,plus a ready mix concrete for building habitat with sheilding,from the lunar dust.There is also platinum ,gold,and maganese according to the analyisis from the Apollo missions.And yes,it will be awhile for the investment to see a return,due to the huge initial costs.But our steps from the Earth,to the moon,to Mars,and onward throughout our solar system will have huge payoffs eventually.The biggest payoff will be the preservation of our species,but I've already lost that argument several times.Yet I know that after I am dead,we will finally get up to speed with our space programs,and that within this century we will see a full fledged bunch of space colonies and vehicular transports and mining operations,all growing into human civilizations on multiple planetary bodies throughout our solar system.Everybody will be coming home to Mother Earth for R&R(unless shes been made uninhabitable by a nuclear exchange or a meteor impact,which would only justify our being in many other locations all the more)or,in that case,would be trying to run salvage and rescue missions to the other outposts within the solar system.We have to get off of this rock.We have to move into the frontier of space or we are just as doomed as the freaking dinosaurs to extinction.Mining will eventually make money,and the pitiful greed of mankind may end up saving our sorry bacon.

 

[MeteorWayne]

We are already on the verge of creating very large solar arrays in space,and beaming the collected energy down to our planet via microwave transmission..

ROFL, another "in 20 years" idea....

 

[Couerl]

We are already on the verge of creating very large solar arrays in space,and beaming the collected energy down to our planet via microwave transmission..

ROFL, another "in 20 years" idea....

That and fusion eh?

I can see small scale ventures leading to larger scale, but what I don't see is any foreseeable ROI and if the investor is dead before he/she ever hopes to make a profit from their investment then it simply is not going to happen. That is of course unless governments or large corporations decide to make it happen regardless of ROI or at least looking at the ROI in terms of future generations (maybe to pay off Obama care :lol: ).. If the combined governments of the world wanted to build a mining city on the moon they could do it, all I am advocating is to start small and let the machines do all of the heavy lifting. Good robots/drones can work 24 hrs per day all week and all year and they don't have to be fast, just durable and persistent. I would prefer that when the day comes (I'd hazard a guess of at least 100 years) to colonize the moon or mars or venus or whatever that machines had already laid down the foundation for a safe and comfortable environment that we could simply arrive at. I think though that once these machines are designed and produced to do work here on earth that it won't be long before they can be sent elsewhere.. That dorky movie Red planet with the little kung-fu doggy robot was the wrong way to go, we need to send dozens of specialized machines that are very good at particular functions and can support each other, not a single swiss army knife that just gets stuck in the sand...