Soyuz costs and Shuttle costs?

[paulolearysp]

so My Olson is in the ISS today for $20M. How much does it cost the russians to launch one of their Soyuz's? <br /><br />How much does it really cost to launch a shuttle. $100M? $200M? What is NASA spending the other $3.8 Billion on every year?

 

[nacnud]

Summing over the total cost of the development and operations of the STS a shuttle launch costs about $1.3B.<br /><br />I think a manned Soyuz launch is around $40M.<br /><br />But it would be like comparing chalk and cheese.<br /><br />

 

[shuttle_man]

A Soyuz is a crew carrier of three. A Shuttle is a crew carrier of seven and also has a large payload capacity. It is unfair to compare the two.

 

[CalliArcale]

$40 mil sounds awfully low. They only charge $20 mil for the tourist seat, after all. I would expect it to be higher than that.<br /><br />Part of the trouble with finding these prices is that there isn't a simple price tag for the launch. There's a budget for the progra and launch costs come out of that, but it's hard to work out what the cost of a launch would be in a total vacuum.<br /><br />Come to that, it's not really even clear what a cheeseburger really costs at McDonald's. Oh, I know what they charge for it, but how much does it cost them to make the cheeseburger? That's what most people are really wondering when they ask how much a Shuttle launch costs. Do you need to factor in the costs of maintaining and operating the LC-39 facilities? If so, then for working out the real cost of a cheeseburger, you'd have to factor in the cost of maintaining and operating the restaurant where it's prepared and served, and then divide that by the total number of cheeseburgers sold. It's not obvious. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[nacnud]

Hence the around, I think its probably between $40M and $60M. Astronautix says $40M in 1999 dollars and I don't know how thats changed since.<br /><br />To really compare on price alone you would have to factor in the development and running cost of the Soyuz over 30+ years, something that is most likely impossible now.<br />

 

[paulolearysp]

I'm wondering if a shuttle launch is really that high, then they could only launch 3 missions a year and their budget would be shot. So maybe there's a fixed cost(all the staff) and a variable cost(fuel, MRE's, trucks to deliver the fuel, simulations) to the launches. Maybe $1B is part of the fixed costs and $300M for each shuttle launch? How much is that fuel costing anyways?<br /><br />It would make sense for the soyuz to be relatively cheap. It's a smaller payload to launch(3 people, and little cargo), and they have been running them for 30 years. <br /><br />Maybe NASA could save a ton of money if it paid Russia $20 million for 10-20 astronauts to get to the ISS? I imagine that Russian might give them a volume discount!<br /><br />Summing over the total cost of the development and operations of the STS a shuttle launch costs about $1.3B.<br /><br />I think a manned Soyuz launch is around $40M.<br /><br />But it would be like comparing chalk and cheese. <br /><br />Is the ISS budget part of NASA? Isn't that another $1B per year?

 

[nacnud]

Yeah the fixed costs on the STS are high but to add another flight is not that costly, it would be a good system if the flight rate was higher.

 

[darkenfast]

Some of the advantages that the Soyuz launcher has are:<br />Low wages of the everyone from the cosmonauts to the engineers. Security and other services provided by conscript soldiers, who get room and board and a little pocket money. Payroll costs add up quickly. The man-hours required to launch a "Semyorka" has got to be a fraction of the Shuttle's.<br />A rocket that is fifty years old. Comparable to our Delta II, which I've heard costs about 80 million dollars to launch. <br />Much simpler infrastructure at the launch site. For example, the rocket is moved to the pad by a simple yard locomotive vs. our more capable, but more expensive Transporter.<br />It's really not a fair comparison. Soyuz has really reached the limits of its development. It will go down in space history as a long-lived workhorse, but it simply cannot match the Shuttle in terms of what missions it can perform. But for launching up to three people and a few hundred pounds to LEO, it works.<br />The CEV will run rings around it, and so probably will Kliper (if it gets built). The CEV's launcher and the Heavy will take care of and far exceed the cargo capabilities of the Shuttle. <br />The Soyuz launcher will probably soldier on in the commercial market, if or when the Soyuz itself is retired.<br />

 

[nacnud]

<font color="yellow">Soyuz has really reached the limits of its development. <br /><br /><font color="white">Not yet is hasn't. Onega is still a possibility and there is the recent Soyuz-3 proposal.<br /><br />Edit: Oh you mean the spacecraft not the launcher, I was meaning the system as a whole. Doh.<br /></font></font>

 

[shuttle_rtf]

>and there is the recent Soyuz-3 proposal. <<br /><br />Now that's one awesome rocket!

 

[SpaceKiwi]

With respect to the $20M tag on the 'tourist seat', that likely bears no relation to the overall Soyuz launch cost at all. I imagine it is a figure arrived at by those marketing the seats as an appropriate amount to charge to ensure a steady stream of 'spaceflight participants'.<br /><br />On the one hand it helps to defray the costs of launch, so cannot really be characterised as 'profitable' at all. But, on the other hand, the Soyuz's are going up regardless of whether the spare seat is empty or full, so the fee paid by Olsen, etc, might be viewed as 100% profit.<br /><br />I guess it depends on where on the balance sheet the Russians place their collected fees. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><font size="2" color="#ff0000">Who is this superhero?  Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!</font></em></p><p><em><font size="2">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</font></em></p><p><font size="5">Bring Back The Black!</font></p> </div>