Space Ship I and Space Ship II and Ares

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dryson

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How feasible would it be to mount the SSO I or SSO II to a smaller version of an Ares SRB to launch the craft into LEO?

Of course the newer versions being SSO III and SSO IV would need to be built for the riggers of the travel but could the LEO designed SSO III and IV be better suited to carry space site seerer's into LEO than using SSO I and SSO II? After the site seeing toure was complete the site seerer's would dock at the I.S.S. or similar facility and then return to Earth in the Orion return command pod.
 
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sftommy

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You can't control the throttle of a Solid Rocket Booster, makes it a problem for launching humans very far into space, no matter what architecture its married to.

ATK knows that, as does their congressional delegations from Utah and Florida, and yet this bad technology is being forced on NASA.

It's a waste of money in the House proposal.
 
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vulture4

Guest
Right on target, sftommy. We could live with the SRB as long as we needed it for Shuttle, but to eliminate Shuttle and then spend a fortune building a new SRB for a new system simply doesn't make sense.

As to sending SSI or SSII into orbit, essentially that's what the X-37 project is, or would be if NASA hadn't abandoned it. Until the technology is more mature there is nothing to be gained by adding a crew.
 
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rcsplinters

Guest
Guys, I don't know, I think those solids are about the best assist you can ask for getting off the ground. Extremely safe. Lot of power. Granted, you won't want to light one of those candles up in the air, but they sure get you off the tower well. When you contemplate 70 - 100 tons, they just seem to be the best bet. When you consider ARES, the Senate version of the bill, the house version of the bill, the SD-HLV and other designs floating about, all of them seem to use that option. I haven't seen anything from a body in a decision making capacity seriously consider anything different. I frankly don't see a down side other than perhaps cost and there have been some indication that could be reduced. I think we'll see solids in either the house or senate solutions and frankly, I have no problem with that.
 
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rockett

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rcsplinters":3n816jll said:
Guys, I don't know, I think those solids are about the best assist you can ask for getting off the ground. Extremely safe. Lot of power. Granted, you won't want to light one of those candles up in the air, but they sure get you off the tower well. When you contemplate 70 - 100 tons, they just seem to be the best bet. When you consider ARES, the Senate version of the bill, the house version of the bill, the SD-HLV and other designs floating about, all of them seem to use that option. I haven't seen anything from a body in a decision making capacity seriously consider anything different. I frankly don't see a down side other than perhaps cost and there have been some indication that could be reduced. I think we'll see solids in either the house or senate solutions and frankly, I have no problem with that.
What I really don't like about them for Human Spaceflight is you can't throttle them, and once lit you can't shut them down. I have no problem using them for boosters on say a HLV, just not as the primary.
 
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artemiit

Guest
In my opinion this is a good idea to save ARES I . But the SpaceShips would have more performant engines than actual . For example an RS-68 or a J-2 engine instead of actual hybrid engine
 
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dryson

Guest
Doesn't the hybird engine on SSO I and SSO II actually burn hotter than the SRB'S? Why couldn't the same approach of using the engine from the SSO I or SSO II be used in the SRB's?
http://science.howstuffworks.com/spaceshipone5.htm
All types of rocket fuel are made up of two components: the fuel and the oxidizer. By adding a large burst of heat to the fuel, then introducing the oxidizer, you get the sustained explosive result that will propel a craft into space. In solid rocket fuel, the oxidizer is embedded into the fuel; in a liquid system the two components are stored separately on the craft and combined during ignition. The problem with this latter system is that traditional fuels and oxidizers are expensive and dangerous to store. To cut down on both cost and risk, SpaceShipOne is propelled by a mixture of hydroxy-terminated polybutadiene (tire rubber) and nitrous oxide (laughing gas). The rubber acts as the fuel and the laughing gas as the oxidizer.
The inherent properties of laughing gas help save a few more dollars on the project. Nitrous oxide self-pressurizes at room temperature. This makes it unnecessary to outfit SpaceShipOne with a complicated system of pumps and plumbing to combine the oxidizer with the fuel during flight.

Maybe instead of strapping the SSO I onto the back of an SRB why not make two that are in proportion to the ship place them underneath of the ship and use them as an extra booster to get into space? The SSO I SRB's would be fueled by exactly the same way that the SSO I's engines are fueled.
 
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SteveCNC

Guest
One thing you have to remember about ss1 and ss2 are these craft are made almost completely of carbon fiber . Structurally it would be next to impossible to mount an SRB or 2 to it because there isn't a standard frame to tie them to . And besides that I'm not sure they are capable of the speeds needed to achieve full orbit and return (the harder part) that wasn't part of their design profile .
 
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vulture4

Guest
Solids and hybrids save on development cost but even in expendable systems they often have higher operational costs and in reusable systems they are invariably more expensive to operate. Compare the refurbishment of the SRB to refueling the X-15. Had NASA not foolishly cancelled the X-34 Rutan might well have used liquid propulsion in the SpaceShip.
 
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SteveCNC

Guest
the carbon fiber system I'm told dosen't have any of the fatigue problems that metal has and as for refuel , the hybrid anyway is nothing but Nitrous Oxide and a special rubber cylinder precision cut on the outside diameter and overall length with a large hole trepanned in it . I would imagine it takes maybe a day to refuel assuming some testing needs to be done after loading but I don't think the fuel is too expensive , max I could even imagine would be 30k for the fuel it uses , but I would like to see the bill . But your not going to ever reach LEO with those ships , I do recall an interview way back in the early days of SS1 where there was talk of building a LEO and beyond capable ship at some point . Though I think we will have to see how stage one works out before moving on to stage 2 .
 
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ZiraldoAerospace

Guest
Space Ship 1 and 2 wouldn't be able to handle the reentry. You would need to add a ton of insulation from space, a docking lock, a thermal protection system, etc. The X-37B is basically what this is if you made a manned version.
 
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dryson

Guest
Would using the same fuel source as the SSO I in larger multi stage rockets and boosters that can handle the launch be able to provide the thrust necessary for LEO which would reduce the cost of sending material into space?
 
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MeteorWayne

Guest
This is just a silly topic. SS I and SS II have totally different mission than Ares. Why are they even in the same discussion???
 
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dryson

Guest
The topic is called Hybrid Utilization where the various systems of one craft are used on another to generate a new kind of craft or propulsion process that is more economical over another system which will achieve the same goal or purpose or the older system but at a reduced cost of use.
 
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dryson

Guest
It is also obvious that you just glanced through the topic without actually reading what was being discussed.
 
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MeteorWayne

Guest
No, actually the topic is:

Space Ship I and Space Ship II and Ares

It's your title.

Your original post does nothing to change the irrelevance of your later ones.
 
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dryson

Guest
No, actually the topic is:
Space Ship I and Space Ship II and Ares
It's your title.
Your original post does nothing to change the irrelevance of your later ones.

Yes that is what the topic says. Space Ship I and Ship II and Ares.

So where is the irrelevance of the topic that is being discussed? Or are you still playing political science twister games with yourself?
 
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dryson

Guest
One thing you have to remember about ss1 and ss2 are these craft are made almost completely of carbon fiber . Structurally it would be next to impossible to mount an SRB or 2 to it because there isn't a standard frame to tie them to . And besides that I'm not sure they are capable of the speeds needed to achieve full orbit and return (the harder part) that wasn't part of their design profile .

I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that if the same design is built around space worthy materials and then launched into space using an Ares type booster then there might be a class of ships that could be used to shuttle tourists and crew back and forth between the Moon and the I.S.S. Although the ships would have to be built with systems that allow for long durations in space small craft such as these would be more economical then building rockets that cost billions of dollars to send people to the Moon.
 
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SteveCNC

Guest
I know what your after , and while carbon fiber in itself is space capable I think a ship that was going to stay in outerspace full time should be a little bit more hefty on the whole hull design . But with some modifications something similar to ss2 could be made to travel between an earth orbit station to a moon orbit station and back , although it would never be able to enter earth's atmosphere . The motor's mount system could be designed as a cartridge type system with a nitrous oxide fill point and it wouldn't be difficult to keep it running .

But even at all that it would still require a redesign to incorperate a docking system (no SS models have docking to date) , and while it does have a space maneurving system it's not made for long duration so that would need beefing up . While I do love carbon fiber for it strength/weight ratio it does have limitations which is why for deeper space than the top of the atmosphere I would want my carbon-fiber coated and layered with a bit more for debris or micro-meteorite hits . I'm sure when the need arises though that our friends over at Scaled Composites will build it for a reasonable price .
 
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MeteorWayne

Guest
dryson":1johgkjx said:
No, actually the topic is:
Space Ship I and Space Ship II and Ares
It's your title.
Your original post does nothing to change the irrelevance of your later ones.

Yes that is what the topic says. Space Ship I and Ship II and Ares.

So where is the irrelevance of the topic that is being discussed? Or are you still playing political science twister games with yourself?

I am saying that Spaceship 1 and 2 have NOTHING to do with Ares. SS I and II are suborbital pleasure flights. Ares is a LEO launch booster, a completely different mission. Show me where I am wrong. To confuse them is, wellll, ....
 
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frodo1008

Guest
I am going to compose this particular post in Word, so that I can save something that I have had to say again, and again, and again!

Listen up people, large solid rocket motors are NOT as safe as large liquid propellant rocket motors are!!

You would say of course, but such liquid engines are far more complicated, and have far more moving parts (in the turbines and turbo pumps of the propellant feed systems). And I would concede that you would be correct there.

But that particular point is far over ridden by another pertinent part of the necessary manufacturing procedure for these two systems.

And that is in the testing of the final product as follows:

When you test a large SRB, that particular motor IS history, it is gone, never to return. This is an understandable result of such testing!

OK, now because of the nature of the homogeneousness of liquid propellants on the other hand, a large liquid rocket engine that is tested and runs well within its design parameters can (and indeed should) be used as the very engine that is then used on the launch vehicle itself. In fact, tweaking that can be done to make sure that the engine performs well can even sometimes be done right after the test, and then the particular engine is run again to ensure its safe operation.

This run that makes sure that the engine operates safely and well is called a “Green run”, at least at Rocketdyne, (which has built and tested some 95% of all the liquid rocket engines ever built for the US) but it may go by other names elsewhere. This has been done even on the engines destined for the one time use of launching commercial satellites and NASA space probes.

This is kind of akin to the automobile industry making a similar “Green run” on all of its automobile engines. And you certainly do not expect your new car’s engine to explode the fist time ( or even many times afterwords) that you turn the key in the ignition, now do you?

On the other hand a large solid rocket motor MUST depend totally upon its manufacturing integrity to make sure that motors subsequent to a particular successfully tested design have absolutely no flaws at all. For without this rather extreme version of Statistical Process Control (called STP in Quality Assurance circles) then it is just as likely that the motor(s) have now become very large potential bombs instead of the propulsion elements that they were originally meant to be.

Now, please don’t get me wrong here, the excellent employees of ATK in Utah have truly done a great job of such STP that the SRB’s of the shuttle have been safe (the Challenger incident would not be generally a part of this inherent unsafe condition, as that was an original design problem coupled with a NASA management mess that caused that).

But, this inherent testing problem still does make large liquid rocket engines inherently safer than large solid rocket motors. And no less a great rocket scientist that Wherner Von Braun so believed this that he would not under any circumstances even consider using large solid motors for the principle propulsion source for the venerable Saturn series of rockets (even though there were those that wished to do that even back then).

Besides which none of the other rockets, (some like the Delta II with an almost flawless record) of the US used for space launches use SRB motors. Although they are used for ICBM’s (which it is hoped will NEVER have to be used anyway). And also, no other country that launches such rockets uses anything other than liquid engines for their primary propulsion units either.

So, hopefully I have used facts and logic to bust the myth of the relative safety of solid rocket motors when compared to liquid rocket engines of comparable thrust!

So, thanks for bothering to read this relatively long post, and have a great day! :D :D :D
 
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SteveCNC

Guest
I have to agree that SRB's are somewhat dangerous , reminds me of skydiving and not letting someone else pack your chute , you just want to be sure it's right the first time cause second chances aren't coming when it comes to SRB's.

I hope your not confusing SRB's with Hybrids though because they are completly different in use and safety . I have heard Space-Dev is working on a more powerful hybrid motor than what SS2 has onboard by a considerable amount but we will have to see what comes from it . I know back during the development of the hybrid motor Chris(lead engineer) was telling me that this motor was completely scaleable and it would be possible to make a rather large one if it was desired to produce a considerable amount of thrust . While I have not see any orders come in for large hybrid motor parts , the shop I work in these days is limited in what we can produce in size and may not have the capacity to do that size work .
 
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vulture4

Guest
I agree that hybrids are relatively scalable, but there are some limitations since mixing is only by diffusion and at some point the diffusion distance becomes excessive. But the principal difficulty in my view is that refueling a hybrid requires replacement of a substantial part of the casing and thrust vector control requires a hot-section flex joint which isn't reusable, so although development is less expensive, operating cost is generally lower for a an engine designed for reusability, where you can just refuel and relaunch. Moreover, AFAIK hybrids are essentially all pressure-fed; with a large engine and stage the cost of a turbopump is pretty well justified. One lesson of both Apollo and Shuttle is that operating costs overwhelm development costs.
 
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SteveCNC

Guest
to refuel a hybrid only requires the removal of one end of the motor (preferably the back for easier access to the starters) which involves cutting about 150-200 rivets off (couple of hours) , slide the old fuel plug and phenolic liner out and pull out the used starters . Put in new starters and slide the new fuel plug and liner in , put the end back on and pressure test the assembly . Refill the Nitrous oxide tanks and your ready to go again . The only thing thrown away is the old liner and perhaps the used fuel plug if it can't be melted down and recycled and the used starters . This particular motor could be easily made to be cartridge exchangeable where the main motor assembly gets swapped out for refilling at a later time or other location . It could be the perfect solution for an in-space ferry system from a safety standpoint .
 
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vulture4

Guest
As size, precision, complexity, and procedural requirements increase the cost of operations increases as well. Replacing major parts of the hardware and assembling a pressure-tight high-temperature seal in a large man-rated system is nontrivial. Even the cost of the acrylic hybrid fuel is much higher than the cost of pumping the equivalent RP-1 or LH2 onto a liquid propelled reusable. Also, as I mentioned, there is the question of how thrust vector control would be handled. It appears the SpaceShip 2 uses gas jets but for an orbital vehicle this probably would not be practical.

I'm not claiming a hybrid is not a reasonable choice for some missions, but I think there are a lot of plusses to liquid propulsion in a fuly reusable launch system. AFAIK we don't use solid fuel on any operational reusable transportation system. Again a flight prototype like the X-34 would have been quite useful in getting some real data on cost of operation for reusable liquid propellant launch systems.
 
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