SpaceX Falcon I - Flight 3 Launch Failure T+2:20

[DrRocket]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The problem, as I see it, is that repeated failures will eventually make it harder for each new kid on the block to convince a paying customer to buy their ride/product/service, which hinders investment in the private Space 2.0.Hence, I'm hoping that flight 4 finally orbits something. <br />Posted by aphh</DIV><br />&nbsp;Precisely <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[tanstaafl76]

<p>&nbsp;</p><p>Flight 4 is a demo flight, so the only thing it will potentially orbit is an empty upper stage, but a successful flight would allow them to proceed with payloads again.&nbsp; I don't see how they can survive another failure though.</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[tanstaafl76]

<p>&nbsp;</p><p>Flight 4 is a demo flight, so the only thing it will potentially orbit is an empty upper stage, but a successful flight would allow them to proceed with payloads again.&nbsp; I don't see how they can survive another failure though.</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[job1207]

Basically, as I understand it, the second stage would be lit at zero acceleration of the first stage plus a few seconds. How long would that pause be, and would the rocket actually pause or perhaps begin to fall a bit before lighting the second stage.

 

[job1207]

Basically, as I understand it, the second stage would be lit at zero acceleration of the first stage plus a few seconds. How long would that pause be, and would the rocket actually pause or perhaps begin to fall a bit before lighting the second stage.

 

[MarkStanaway]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I was just wondering if they could solve the timing problem with something simple like the mechanism used in a ******** bomb? Just some fins that deploy after sep. that cause enough drag to pull the stage away from the other.<br /> Posted by gawin</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>This is the method that they have used to remove the aerodynamic shrouds from Soyuz for the past forty years. Is there any reason why such simple air brakes could not be used on the first stage of Falcon to ensure a clean separation before second stage ignition?</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MarkStanaway]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I was just wondering if they could solve the timing problem with something simple like the mechanism used in a ******** bomb? Just some fins that deploy after sep. that cause enough drag to pull the stage away from the other.<br /> Posted by gawin</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>This is the method that they have used to remove the aerodynamic shrouds from Soyuz for the past forty years. Is there any reason why such simple air brakes could not be used on the first stage of Falcon to ensure a clean separation before second stage ignition?</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Bytor_YYZ]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;This is the method that they have used to remove the aerodynamic shrouds from Soyuz for the past forty years. Is there any reason why such simple air brakes could not be used on the first stage of Falcon to ensure a clean separation before second stage ignition?&nbsp; <br /> Posted by MarkStanaway</DIV></p>Not quite true<br /><p>1. &nbsp; Air drag is to remove the&nbsp; aerodynamic shrouds from Soyuz during LES aborts, which are lower in the atmosphere</p><p>&nbsp;2.&nbsp; There isn't enough air pressure at staging for&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;3.&nbsp; Also it isn't quite simple. it violates the KISS principle </p>

 

[Bytor_YYZ]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;This is the method that they have used to remove the aerodynamic shrouds from Soyuz for the past forty years. Is there any reason why such simple air brakes could not be used on the first stage of Falcon to ensure a clean separation before second stage ignition?&nbsp; <br /> Posted by MarkStanaway</DIV></p>Not quite true<br /><p>1. &nbsp; Air drag is to remove the&nbsp; aerodynamic shrouds from Soyuz during LES aborts, which are lower in the atmosphere</p><p>&nbsp;2.&nbsp; There isn't enough air pressure at staging for&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;3.&nbsp; Also it isn't quite simple. it violates the KISS principle </p>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;This is the method that they have used to remove the aerodynamic shrouds from Soyuz for the past forty years. Is there any reason why such simple air brakes could not be used on the first stage of Falcon to ensure a clean separation before second stage ignition?&nbsp; <br />Posted by MarkStanaway</DIV></p><p>There are lots of ways to skin that cat.&nbsp; Air brakes would be one, but that would require a new subsystem be added to the design.&nbsp; I don't think it is necessary to go that far, but you could and it would probably work.&nbsp; <br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;This is the method that they have used to remove the aerodynamic shrouds from Soyuz for the past forty years. Is there any reason why such simple air brakes could not be used on the first stage of Falcon to ensure a clean separation before second stage ignition?&nbsp; <br />Posted by MarkStanaway</DIV></p><p>There are lots of ways to skin that cat.&nbsp; Air brakes would be one, but that would require a new subsystem be added to the design.&nbsp; I don't think it is necessary to go that far, but you could and it would probably work.&nbsp; <br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[shuttle_guy]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Basically, as I understand it, the second stage would be lit at zero acceleration of the first stage plus a few seconds. How long would that pause be, and would the rocket actually pause or perhaps begin to fall a bit before lighting the second stage. <br />Posted by job1207</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>The delay is only for about 2 seconds. During that time the upper stage and paylod is slowing down due to gravity. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[shuttle_guy]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Basically, as I understand it, the second stage would be lit at zero acceleration of the first stage plus a few seconds. How long would that pause be, and would the rocket actually pause or perhaps begin to fall a bit before lighting the second stage. <br />Posted by job1207</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>The delay is only for about 2 seconds. During that time the upper stage and paylod is slowing down due to gravity. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[job1207]

<p>I never had more than HS physics and the Physics 101 102 that they give to pre med guys like me. That is basic stuff. Seriously. ( I am an Internist now. )</p><p>However, I remember calculating things like this. How fast will the vehicle be going if it undergoes acceleration for X and so on. Pretty simple stuff, in and of itself.&nbsp;</p><p>So they forgot to calculate that the lower part would still be accelerating. OOOOOPS, like a big OOOPS.&nbsp; </p>

 

[job1207]

<p>I never had more than HS physics and the Physics 101 102 that they give to pre med guys like me. That is basic stuff. Seriously. ( I am an Internist now. )</p><p>However, I remember calculating things like this. How fast will the vehicle be going if it undergoes acceleration for X and so on. Pretty simple stuff, in and of itself.&nbsp;</p><p>So they forgot to calculate that the lower part would still be accelerating. OOOOOPS, like a big OOOPS.&nbsp; </p>

 

[lampblack]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> So they forgot to calculate that the lower part would still be accelerating. OOOOOPS, like a big OOOPS.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by job1207</DIV></p><p><font size="3">Musk said that at burnout, the first stage exhibited residual thrust that had not been easily measurable during engine tests on the ground. That small -- but still significant -- residual thrust was less evident, apparently, at atmospheric pressure than in vaccuum. And thus, the rear-end collision. </font></p><p><font size="3">It *does* sound sort of like a rookie mistake.</font></p><p><font size="3">&nbsp;</font></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[lampblack]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> So they forgot to calculate that the lower part would still be accelerating. OOOOOPS, like a big OOOPS.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by job1207</DIV></p><p><font size="3">Musk said that at burnout, the first stage exhibited residual thrust that had not been easily measurable during engine tests on the ground. That small -- but still significant -- residual thrust was less evident, apparently, at atmospheric pressure than in vaccuum. And thus, the rear-end collision. </font></p><p><font size="3">It *does* sound sort of like a rookie mistake.</font></p><p><font size="3">&nbsp;</font></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[vattas]

I think they didn't expect it to last that long, not that they weren't expecting it at all...

 

[vattas]

I think they didn't expect it to last that long, not that they weren't expecting it at all...

 

[job1207]

I am SURE that Physics and engineering professors all over are using this as an example of what NOT to do......!!! I got my A in Phsyics, while I did not get into rocketry, this is still a simple calculation. <br /><br />

 

[job1207]

I am SURE that Physics and engineering professors all over are using this as an example of what NOT to do......!!! I got my A in Phsyics, while I did not get into rocketry, this is still a simple calculation. <br /><br />