Survival on earth during red giant phase

[newtonian]

Silyene - Assuming a thinner atmosphere, if we heat portions of ore processing surface areas to 1,000 C, will the heat radiate out from earth since the surface temperature will be above 500C?<br /><br />What is currently the hottest temperature used in ore processing?

 

[newtonian]

Silylene - How much gold will be produced by desalinating 99% of earth's oceans?$$$!!?? <br /><br />I have heard that certain under ocean layers contain gold - we should be able to mine under ocean areas after we have desalilnated and distributed 99% of ocean water in thousands of levels of greenhouses - with only 1% of ocean water remaining (preserved in seawater parks, etc.).<br /><br />Would the amount of gold be enough to finance the project - considering the solar energy will be free????

 

[newtonian]

You all - I am zeroing in on Aluminum smelting - feel free to add your comments on any of my ideas or thread theme.<br /><br />To start with, we need the relevant scientific facts concerning Aluminum - and here is a start:<br /><br />"Aluminum is the commonest of all earth’s metals. It amounts to 8.13 percent (by weight) of the earth’s crust." - "Awake!," 4/8/70, p. 23<br /><br />Bauxite is the most common mineral containing Aluminum used in smelters.<br /><br />It takes large amounts of energy (which is why I am interested in future red giant energy) to convert bauxite into Aluminum.<br /><br />I will research further to get more details and see if my model is reasonable - please feel free to beat me to it!<br /><br />Will red giant energy be enough to process 8%+ of earth's crust to produce how much Aluminum in terms of limits to size of structures using aluminum alloys?

 

[newtonian]

You all - this is really interesting (to me): the melting point of Aluminum is close to but above projected surface temperatures on earth during red giant phase - using the 500 C estimate. <br /><br />"Encyclopedia International," 1972 edition, by Grollier, under "Aluminum," Volume 1, page 332, notes that the melting point of Aluminum is 659.7 C. <br /><br />I am going to take this tangent to the Technology section for determining the best Aluminum or other metal alloys for constructing 20,000 levels on earth's surface for, among other purposes:<br /><br />1. Containing the CO2 from heating carbonates for multilevel greenhouses - some over 100' high for high trees.<br /><br />2. For ocean desalinization by red giant heat, and use of desalinated water for multilevel greenhouses, aluminum smelting, etc.<br /><br />3. For ocean trench hydroelectric turbines in places like the Mariana trench which could be allowed to dry due to red giant heat in specific honeycomb shaped sections (or some other shape for greater strength to resist the great pressure of miles high of ocean water contained in other honeycomb shaped sections.<br /><br />4. For comfortable space for earth's population in 4 billion years, assuming population continues to double every 35 years.<br /><br />Etc.<br /><br />For this thread, what are the variant models for extremes in earth's surface temperature during various phases leading to red giant phase and beyond to white dwarf phase.<br /><br />Posters - please include day-night temperature variance including longer days due to slowing of rotation rater. Also include temperature variance in various atmospheric layers and in polar vs. equatorial areas.<br /><br />Assume our atmophere will be much thinner - in my projection because we will contain much of the atmosphere in those 20,000 levels.<br /><br />Please also include ways of surviving on various planets, moons, asteroids like, for example, Venus and Mars. {Venus - compare earth during red giant phase; Mars - compa

 

[newtonian]

You all: Alulminum is not only a good construction material - it is also a good conductor of heat and electricity.<br /><br />Another idea: use aluminum to conduct heat from earth's surface to deep within the earth for heat storage for use during white dwarf phase.<br /><br />Meanwhile, a question: what is the limit to insulation by multiple pane and air or liquid cooled glass layers /><br /><br />Can fiber optics conbined with lensing convert red giant radiation into cooler and useful radiation transmitted to underground greenhouses and used directly for plant growth?<br /><br />Is there a simple math ratio betweeen current solar radiation and red giant solar radiation?<br /><br />For example, if solar radiation is to be 20,000 times as great during red giant phase, can we then distribute this by fiber optics, concave and convex lensing, mirrors, etc to 20,000 underground greenhouse levels with radiation roughly equivalent to today at all these underground levels.<br /><br />Would lensing by fiber optics reproduce the appearance of the sky so we could view the sky at each of these levels?<br /><br />Remember - science fiction could become science fact!<br /><br />

 

[nexium]

Hi Newtonian: You must have presented 100 separate ideas for surviving the red giant phase of the Sun. Most of them require much thought to debunk and some are likely workable with future technology.<br />My first thought is the sun is presently warming the lower atmosphere of Earth about 500 degrees f above absolute zero. Why are we presently utilizing, so little of this energy. Think about it. If it is hard to do now, why will it be easier when the lower atmosphere is heated to 600 degrees f above absolute zero? Neil

 

[newtonian]

nexium - Thank you for your response.<br /><br />actually - some are workable now - granted we do not fully utilize solar energy at this time.<br /><br />Solar desalinization is already used somewhere - I'll have to look it up.<br /><br />One reason red giant energy will be easier to use is that no conversion is necessary for some of the uses. Solar desalinization, for example, will be much faster due to the greater heat. And currently solar steam generation [for steam turbines for electricity = desalinization] requires concentration mechanisms - whereas then red giant heat can be used directly - very efficiently!<br /><br />Look for my spinoff questions I will soon post - as this thread does, as you note, involve hundreds of fields of research!<br /><br />Some of my questions will be posted on other sections - but I will start here.<br /><br />NOTE: red giant heat is modeled to be 500C, not 500K or 500F above absolute zero.<br /><br />However, concentration will be needed for both Aluminum smelting and glass making.<br /><br />I have been studying the various different types of aluminum and glass, and the various types of production. Both involve heat greater than 500C!<br /><br />Interestingly, the three most abundant elements in earth's crust: Silicon, Oxygen, Aluminum - are the major ingredients both in Alumina and glass!!!!

 

[newtonian]

Silyene and you all:<br /><br />Tweaking my 20,000 level model for survival on earth of red giant phase based on a 500C (ballpark estimate) earth surface temperature model for the same.<br /><br />Remember that we will have about 5 billion years to construct (build) these levels of existence, and that the population of earth, based on doubling every 35 years, will be well over 1 quadrillion people - so many man-hours of relaxed pace labor will be involved - and note that most labor will be accomplished by robotics incorporating robots that can operate under miles of ocean and alternately in very hot conditions. Perhaps 1 quadrillion robots by 5 billion years from now (one per person on average).<br /><br />Please note also I propose variety - literally trillions of models can be incorporated in different sections of earth’s crust. Note 20,000 levels on millions of square miles of earth’s surface will allow incorporation of trillions of localized models, including many deep into earth’s crust and deep under oceans.<br /><br />Likely we will also be able to accomplish heat transference to earth’s mantle or even perhaps earth’s core by red giant phase times (5 billion years from now) for future use during Octillions of years into white dwarf phase or until we interact with another universe.<br /><br /> I will post on a relatively small number of these trillions of models.<br /><br />PARKS<br /><br />I believe it would be important to incorporate parks in the system - some of which would approximate beautiful parks and gardens existing now.<br /><br />For this post I will put forth a model for two parks:<br /><br />1. Marianas trench under ocean park.<br /><br />2. Himalaya mountain park.<br /><br />Both parks would have a minimum of man-made change and would comprise one of a relatively few levels in these sections of earth’s surface. I propose a mere 7 levels of existence in irregularly spaced surface areas averaging 29,000 feet high (= deep) totaling about 200,000 feet or about 4

 

[newtonian]

Note: I propose a robotic population on the top ceililng which will be available to repair damage due to meteorites and/or comets.<br /><br />And potential rapid deployment of robots from miles to the side of potential impacts.<br /><br />And on hand temporary very lightweight covering material (compare New Orleans blue roofs) that can be deployed rapidly.<br /><br />Remember, miles of air does insulate - breaching by meteorites will not produce 500C heat instantly 29,000 feet or more below the breach on surfaces. <br /><br />Most meteorites would vaporize before descending through the remaining miles of air.

 

[tdamskov]

Newtonian, I find all your engineering ideas entertaining and an interesting mental excercise, but there is one point you fail to address which has an immense impact on any plans:<br /><br />Exactly what is it you wish to preserve? The biosphere? Or just humans?<br /><br />Almost all of your engineering plans seem to call for complete restructuring of the biosphere into something artificial, managed by humans and non sustainable without active supervision. In the end, your plans would destroy more than they would preserve.<br />

 

[nexium]

Hi SVM: Your 4 simple conclusions assume that main stream science has most of the details about lots of things nearly correct. The possibility that mainstream has some defects, makes Newtonian's engineering possibly workable, even if not probable. Most future break thoughs will require a person who dared to think outside the box.<br />1 The existance of modern human society is the result of many ancestors who gave a hoot, and more, about what happens after death.<br />2 Comparatively few experts think the Earth will be completely vaporized during the red giant stage. There is a slight possibility that those who make extensive and wise preparations will survive.<br />4 Some kinds of precautions are more logical than others. Individuals can and do make choices. Neil

 

[johnsje]

Just a quick question. Where are we going to find the materials to do all the construction for everything that has been proposed? I would bet that by the time the sun starts expanding, the earth will already have been depleted of all its natural resources at least a few billion years earlier. Just look what we have done in a few hundred years. <br /><br />Ya, we could get stuff Asteroids, but how long will that last? I think either we’ll just die on the planet or we will find others to go to. Mars would give us a few more years to survive, but we would need to be able to find young systems like our out there somewhere out there.<br /><br />

 

[newtonian]

tdamskov - Thank you - and, yes, this is more of an entertainment for me also.<br /><br />As I do not actually believe God will allow earth to become so hot.<br /><br />However, since others believe this, I am simply adapting this thread to that.<br /><br />I am proposing preserving, not destroying, the biosphere - and all forms of life: flora, fauna, etremophile, etc.<br /><br />How do you define artificial? If Holland goes ahead with its floating greenhouse plans to adapt to rising sea level and lowering ground levels - would the plants grown in these greenhouses be artificial or natural?<br /><br />BTW - some of the technologies I proposed are actually already used - e.g. there is a ski resort somewhere on the hot Arab continent - is it Dubai? Artificial ski slopes - or, real?<br /><br />Note that ordinarry houses are not sustainable without active supervision - in view of entropy. However, life overcomes the tendency of entropy to return things to the most stable state. Life is characteristically unstable, and the informational complexity is maintained by informational input.<br /><br />Life is natural. So is death. I prefer life, albeit it does require sustained informational direction, input, control.<br /><br />I do not propose underground greenhouses (more accurately within structure more than underground) with artificial plants. Plant lights can provide light at proper wavelenths for natural photosynthesis - this is not some futuristic technology - the techonolgy already exists and has been used. <br /><br />I hope to post documented examples of how some of these technological ideas are already in use - feel free to beat me to it!<br /><br />Remember, btw, that red giant phase is, according to popular models, about 5 billion years from now. <br /><br />Certainly man, even without God, would (if he doesn't destroy himself and the earth) progress far beyond current technology and capability in 5 billion years.<br /><br />I wouldn't be surpised if man had by then created AI r

 

[newtonian]

johnsje - Did you note that aluminum comprises 8%+ of earth's crust!<br /><br />Did you note that silicon, including silica (SiO2) used in glass, is even more abundant in earth's crust!<br /><br />I was not proposing using fossil fuels. Far from it. I proposed producing chemical fuels. <br /><br />Are you aware of how abundant carbonates are in earth's crust? Did you realilze that red giant heat would cause release of CO2 from carbonates?<br /><br />I simply propose converting the vast deposits of carbonates in earth's crust into first CO2 via controled application of red giant heat in enclosures (e.g. factories; manufacturing), then carbohydrates by enclosed greenhouses via plants which would not only produce vast volumes of food for humans, animals, etc., but also then decompose into: ____________<br /><br />Yes: fossil fuels! Not depletion but production, and in a vastly greater volume than currently exists in earth's crust.<br /><br />Note that there is far more carbon is earth's crust at present in the form of carbonates than in the form of fossil fuels and biomass.<br /><br />I simply propose, and it will take likely billions of years to accormplish this, to convert:<br /><br />1. Aluminum ores into aluminum for structures, etc..<br /><br />2. Silicon especially silica (as in sand) into vast amounts of glass - including insulating forms, hear resistant forms, etc.<br /><br />3. Carbonates into CO2 into carbohydrates (via plants and involving vast amounts of food) into vast stores of fossill fuels.<br /><br />And, for another conversion taking perhaps 5 billion years to complete:<br /><br />4. Oxygen is the most abundant element in earth's crust. Combined in many forms. While I propose keeping much of it as SiO2, but in glass rather than sand - I also propose separating oxygen via red giant energy from the various elements and compounds it is contained in in earth's crust and storing vast amounts of oxygen for later use for heat during white dwarf phase.<br /><br />Note that

 

[newtonian]

SVMsmiles - I agree with Neil. <br /><br />1. While this thread is more entertainment than what I expect to be future reality - it certainly contains realistic ideas as to how to survive such a future for earth.<br /><br />Note that I believe in the Bible, which inducates the meek shall inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5) and live forever upon it (Psalms 37:29). I hope to be among those on earth 5 billion years from now, as do all with earthly hopes in my religion.<br /><br />2. As Neil accurately notes, many scientific models do not have earth vaporized - I am centering on the model sillylene posted - 500 C on earth's surface in 5 billion years from now. White dwarf phase to follow for quadrillions of years beyond that.<br /><br />3. The probability of a meteor destroying the entire planet is extremely low. And God would not allow it anyway. Mere humans could also stop catastrophe by meteors - especially with futuristic but realistic future technology.<br /><br />Yes, man could destroy the earth. Revelation 11:18 foretells man would be doing this, but states that God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth. <br /><br />God will then help mankind live forever on the earth (Revelation 21:3,4; Isaiah 11:3-9).<br /><br />In this thread I am not posting on the future the Bible foretells for earth, but rather on the future scientific model for earth during red giant phase.<br /><br />4. Revelation 21: 3,4 states that the tent of God will be with mankind. Simply that means God's protection for man on earth. <br /><br />What the tent of God might be is not stated, but note that God created an abundance of aluminum, silica (SiO2) and carbonates in the crust of this planet. I am SPECULATING on why - namely that we were meant to use these available natural resources to construst a protective 'tent' for protecting life on earth.<br /><br />Revelation 21:4 also states "death will be no more."<br /><br />Scientists consider overcoming inherited death (Romans 5:12 accurately states we inh

 

[newtonian]

crazyeddie - Thank you for your input - I can always count on you for a challenge - not yessiing me to death!<br /><br />1A. Mainstream science is not infallible - would you agree? Specifically, do you agree that our sun has zero mixing from core to surface rather than my model of a stirring time of about 1 billion years /><br /><br />If so, why?<br /><br />I state that the observational evidence for floating magnetic fields from deep within the sun to the surface is more than enought indication that the assumption of zero mixing is likely wrong.<br /><br />Remember, magnetic fields imply ions in motion which will cause some mixing.<br /><br />Also remember I am posting on the popular model for red giant phase which sillylene posted - which does assume virtually zero mixing and red giant phase for our sun about 5 billion years from now.<br /><br />1B. We agree modern society involves many who do care about this earth- yet surely you realize man is destroying the earth?<br /><br />2. The 20,000 levels I propose being constructed during the upcoming 5 billion years using much of the aluminum and sllica in earth's crust (the latter for glass, aerogel, etc.) would certainly involve more than a few people. <br /><br />Though I am posting this more as entertainment as realistic science fiction, the fact is that 20,000 levels could easily support the existence of one quadrillion people. <br /><br />I will be glad to prove this, if you would like.<br /><br />And the amount of food produced through the production of CO2 from earth's vast depositis of carbonates and then converted into carbohydrates in 20,000 levels of greenhouses (on average over earth's surface) can easily keep one quadrillion people well fed, along with Quintillions of animals.<br /><br />I will be glad to mathematicdally prove this. For starters, note the amount of carbon in earth's crust in petagrams (see data in Encylopedia Britannica) in biomass compared with the carbon in carbonates.<br /><br />The present biomass c

 

[newtonian]

Neil - Thank you for your support. <br /><br />I agree thinking outside the box is important - without, of course, ignoring the box!<br /><br />Do you have any information on the actual predicted diameter of our sun during red giant phase according to the standard, popular, model?<br /><br />My understanding is that the radius will be less than our 93 million miles from the sun.<br /><br />Depending on how much mass our sun loses before red giant phase, and how much mixing occurs from core to surface and therefore how long our sun will take to reach red giant phase - if ever - all of this effects the orbtal distance of earth from the sun at future red giant phase.<br /><br />Of course, the sun's lower mass will mean lower gravity and therefore more distant earth orbit.<br /><br />BTW- feel free to comment on current global warming - there are many factors besides solar input.<br /><br />For example, ozone depletion has caused less solar energy to be absorbed higher in the atmosphere and therefore correspondingly greater solar energy on earth's surface - an important factor often ignored.<br /><br />Also, it is not just CO2 and other greenhouse gasses, but also the lack of particulate matter in the atmosphere to absorb, or even reflect, solar energy.<br /><br />There was a good TV broadcast (2006) on this today - I think it was on HBO of all places!<br /><br />We could be in serious trouble very soon!<br /><br />And we could take appropriate action before it is too late.<br /><br />[Note: I personally put my trust in God's kingdom, not human efforts. But on this thread I am concentrating on human efforts and capabilitie - including new technologies]<br /><br />Some additional questions:<br /><br />What is the average temperature of eart's mantle?<br /><br />What is the average temperature of earth's core?<br /><br />How does this compare with other planets internal temperatures?

 

[newtonian]

For MeteorWayne - I bumped this thread because on it are varying models which do not necessarily put earth within our sun's surface at red giant phase.<br /><br />I will review this thread myself for links to variant models, etc.<br /><br />You all - Meanwhile- if any of you wish to post on this or add a link - that would be appreciated.<br /><br />Edit: OK, I reviewed the whole thread and no links to those variant models - that must have been on another thread!<br /><br />I will try to locate and post.

 

[witgenestone]

In 1 billion years it will get so hot here that it's hard to imagine any life going on. Up to that time and after - the sun will grow increasingly violent. We have to leave.<br />Humans will most likely be dead long before that time if we haven't spread out. <br /><br />We will have 10000 global affecting asteroids colliding with us per billion years. Some of them will be very large and ugly.<br />Some stars will come very close, some close stars will be supernovas.<br />There is energies in the universe which we can't deal with. We get all our energy from the sun (or other stars). Let's face it: cold fusion will never happen!<br /><br />If all the humans connected together to a large organism we would maybe have a chance <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. (Our if we hade a world state like Plato imagined) But that will also never happen, and maybe for the best.<br /><br />Most people doesn't care (and sadly that group are holding the resources in this world). They are just counting money, consuming alcohol and preparing to die.<br /><br />I know the probability of some of these events happening now are very small, but if you look at it over the course of a billion years, it is unlikely that something unexpectedly ugly doesn't happen. To spread out seems to be the sollution many are grasping. Our natural home is Earth, but if we stay here, we are going to die.<br /><br />We can also destroy ourselves. <br /><br />There could be a being watching over us, but what if you are wrong?<br /><br />here is a proportion link:<br />http://www.comagz.com/webmagazine/story/proportions_how_small_we_are

 

[kyle_baron]

<i><br />Your outlook is decidedly egocentric and seems selfish. Altruism is a outwardly looking survival trait WELL established in many species, because it's a good behavior.. Egocentrism is often not. </i><br /><br />From reading many of your posts, on various topics, your outlook appears to be paranoia. What are you so afraid of, and why?<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="4"><strong></strong></font></p> </div>

 

[six_strings]

I find it an interesting read... *shrug* <br /><br />Even though I do think we will not be around to witness our sun go into a red giant phase, for one reason our another... But it doesn't hurt to much to entertain yourself with the "what ifs" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[newtonian]

WitGeneStone - OK, I think you have your timing off - our sun will not be nearing red giant stage in 1 billion years.<br /><br />In fact, depending on how much mixing between core and surace occurs, our sun may not actually enter red giant phas until 50 billion years - depending on stirring time. I consider a stirring time of from 1 t5o 5 billion years to be tenable.<br /><br />The standard model has our sun entering red giant phase in about 4 or 5 billion years from now. <br /><br />I am not sure if solar radiation may actually decrease for a while before our sun begins entry into red giant phase.<br /><br />Certainly minor cooling effects such as earth receeding to an orbit like Mars should be able to be compensated for by increasing greenhouse gasses - but right now we have the opposite concern: global warming.<br /><br />We have demonstrated the ability to make fairly rapid changes to climate by accident - certainly we could do more on purpose to improve earth's environment.<br /><br />However, man is ruining the earth.<br /><br />Interestingly, man destoying himself and earth is much more probable in the short term - ie within 100, let alone 1,000,000,000 years.<br /><br />The fact that this was foretokd in the Bible - one of hundreds of fulfilled prophecies with no errors - is strong reason to beleve we have a loving Creator.<br /><br />Revelation 11:18 states that our Creator will bring to ruin those ruining the earth.<br /><br />Now man is ruining the earth, the solution will come soon.<br /><br />Meanwhile, those of my faith are fulfilling Isaiah 2:4 - e.g. beating our swords into plowshares and learning war no more. We have considered ourselves a New World Society.<br /><br />We have demonstated a society that is really much better than Plato envisioned.<br /><br />So there is some basis for my thread here though I mean this to also be entertainment - kind of like science fiction with accurate science incorporated.<br /><br />Only one model can be correct - all others are indeed s

 

[newtonian]

stevehw33 - Why do you have confidence in a future ice age?<br /><br />The last ice age was actually a global flood - the effects have been popularly misinterpreted, but these interpretations do not fit the facts - e.g. the sudden extinction of mammoths coupled with quick freezing, and permanent freezing until the current global warming.<br /><br />The cause for that catastrophe no longer exists, though the immediate cause may occur again if that involved either comet or meteor impact or nuclear winter type effects from volcanic eruption(s) or both in concert.<br /><br />In any case, we can survive any of these if we work hard to prepare. <br /><br />Survival of cooling should be in another thread.<br /><br />When I have time I hope to start a thread on survival during white dwarf to black dwarf stage - and that would incorportate methods also useful in surviving drastic cooling including nuclear winter effects.<br /><br />Short term temporary effects are different - they would simply involve using ocean and geothermal heat. Very short term would involve, for example, islands in the tropical Pacific Ocean, etc.<br /><br />Simple things like going from black to white roofs, or vice versa, and increasing or decreasing greenhouse gases, should be used now to combat global warming, and could be used in reverse to combat global cooling.<br /><br />On this thread I am concentrating on more extreme and way more long lasting effects - namely red giant phase which you note can take millions of years to enter into - which is a good thing, much more time than preparing for meteorite impact.<br /><br />But feel free to post methods to combat more imminent possible global warming or cooling effexts.<br /><br />All do involve, btw, better insulation.<br /><br />And working with nature, using nature, rather than fighting nature.

 

[newtonian]

You all - in re-reading standard model stellar evolution models in "The World of Scinece" I noted how thin the outer layer of a red giant is.<br /><br />Above posts seem to ignore this. <br /><br />"The mean density of matter in the outer layers of a red supergiant is about one ten-thousandth of the density of air at sea level." - "The World of Science," Volume 8, page 26.<br /><br />My question is, if we entered that thin of an edge, what effect would that have in slowing earth's orbital speed?<br /><br />Negligible or significant?<br /><br />I suspect it may lead to absorbtion by the sun - but I am not certain.<br /><br />I suspect we need to avoid said 'edge.'

 

[derekmcd]

<i>"I suspect our earth will have receeded in orbit such that my above methods will be unnecessary - but just in case.... "</i><br /><br />What leads you to these suspicions? Unless we change the orbit of the earth through some unnatural means, I have doubts.<br /><br />Tidal forces are certainly not enough. I don't believe there is enough angular momentum to allow the earth to slow down enough for its orbit to recess enough.<br /><br />Additionally, I believe most models don't have the sun shedding enough mass prior to the red giant phase to affect the total energy and angular momentum either. No doubt, you are familiar with the laws of convservation. The sun would have to shed an enormous amount of mass for this to happen. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>