Survival on earth during red giant phase

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nexium

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One ten thousandth of air pressure at sea level = 100 microbarrs would produce gradual deceleration (orbit decay) of Earth in centuries, if not years. At somewhat higher pressure, Earth's atmosphere would reach deadly temperatures, if the atmospheric temperature was not already deadly much farther from the red giant.<br />Insulation will slow the transfer of heat but will not stop heat invasion, so air conditioning is needed to remove the heat that leaks though the insulation. Air conditioning moves heat to a hotter place, and must be multi stage if the condenser location is hundreds of degrees c hotter than the cooled volume. I suspect 1000 degrees c is not possible, as the heat of inefficiency must also be removed at each stage. Neil
 
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witgenestone

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It will get VERY hot here in a billion years, but yes, our companion will become a red giant at a later stage.
 
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newtonian

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WitGeneStone - Can you link to a model that indicates earth will be very hot in 1 billion years?<br /><br />I had never heard this prediction before.
 
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newtonian

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derekmcd - I suspect the standard model of stellar evolution is wrong for our sun. For many reasons essentially revolving around the assumption of zero mixing from core to surface for our sun - I have no doubts that stars that have weaker magnetic field effects and cooler coronas may very well conform to the standard model, more or less.<br /><br />Also, I have read models which put our earth beyond red giant edge - which is probably why sillyene posted a surface temperature prediction of 500 C.<br /><br />Problem is, I forget where I read these models! As time permits I will search for them.<br /><br />I will also detail the extent of loss of mass our sun would undergo if there is mixing at a stirring time of about 1 billion years.<br /><br />As a point of reference, note that earth's ocean has a mixing time of about 1,000 years (other posters estimate 2,000+ years).<br /><br />I will detail later, and this is probably in this thread somewhere:<br /><br />The sun's corona is very hot because of magnetic fields generated by magnetic dynamoes which originate deep within the sun. These dynamoes, and their accompanying magnetic fields, are apparently 'floating' from core to surface.<br /><br />The dynamo effect is likely caused by ions in motion. <br /><br />Motion = mixing.<br /><br />This motion is not necessarily just due to heat convection. There may also be differential internal rotation.<br /><br />The assumption of the standard model is that main sequence stars are similar in properties. Evidence suggests otherwise - for example, consider the existence of magnetars.<br /><br />Again, I will search for some links on the causes of these magnetic fields also.<br /><br />Feel free to post any models you find.
 
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bobw

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A billion years is probably pretty optimistic . I have seen estimates that life will be gone in 200,000,000 years. I can't remember what TV show it was on <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <br /><br />Edit: oops, forgot a set of zeros. previously said 200,000 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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newtonian

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derekmcd - This will take time.<br /><br />For starters, one estimate for the composition of our sun (at this time, some 5 billion years into main sequence):<br /><br />73% hydrogen<br />25% helium<br />2% heavier elements<br /><br />That is from "The World of Science," 1991, volume 7, page 93.<br /><br />Only core hydrogen is burned by main sequence stars following standard model predictions. <br /><br />I am not sure the percentage of unfused hydrogen estimated before beginning to enter red giant phase, i.e. when core hydrogen is exhausted.<br /><br />The central core is about one quarter the sun's radius, but contains a higher proportion of the sun's hydrogen since it is much more dense.<br /><br />Core density about 160 times that of water.<br /><br />Surface (photosphere) density about 1.41 times the density of water.<br /><br />In between the core and photosphere is the radiative zone which extends out to about 80% the solar radius. Energy transfer occurs from core towards the surface by photon collision, absorbtion, re-emission which is estimated to take about 10,000 to 1,000,000 years.<br /><br />Note that estimate varies wildly - feel free to post a more firm estimate.<br /><br />Obviously, my model for stirring time for our sun's mixing of core hydrogen, helium, etc. from core to surface would involve the above estimate.<br /><br />Above the radiative zone but below the photosphere is the convective zone which directly tranfers heat through large scale convective motion.<br /><br />Nuclear fusion of hydrogen to helium uses up about .7% of the mass, converted into energy.<br /><br />Obviously, the loss of mass of our sun before red giant phase by this process alone will be less than .7%, much less if standard model predictions are accepted.<br /><br />Note, however, that our sun also emits mass in a solar wind - I do not know what the ultimate loss of mass will be for our sun before red giant phase - but that was considered in the variant models I have read in the past.<br /><br />Not to
 
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nexium

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I suspect some mixing between the core and the surface of the Sun occurs. This may move the red giant stage to 8 billion years, with the help of some large impactors, about time the red giant stage occurs. The non-symmetry may also cause less swelling of the Sun as some hyrogeen will still being burned in small pockets, thus reducing the force of the gravitational collapse. I predict a radius of 50 million miles at the peak of red giant. The total energy output is expected to increase by several times, so Earth's surface temperature may peak at about the present temperature of Venus = 500 degrees c = 932 degrees f. All or most of the oceans will be lost and perhaps most of the atmosphere. High density gases such as carbon dioxide may be most of what remains, by the time the red giant radius shrinks to 20 million miles. Neil
 
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witgenestone

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I have no links. But it should be fairly easy to find since it seems to be the concensus.<br /><br />Here is a quote from Alex Filippenko's "What's new in astronomy" TTC lectures of 2004:<br />"Well now let me discuss the death of the Sun and other low-mass stars. What's gonna become of the sun as it ages? Well we already know that the Sun is gonna grow gradually brighter, more luminos, more powerful with time, and gradually bigger... And in fact, the growth of luminosity, the growt of power will become noticable in a few hundred million years. Indeed, in half a billion years the Sun will be so much brighter, so much more powerful than it is now, that our occeans will basicly evaporate away.So many people say: Ohh, the Sun has four and a half- or five more billion years to live before it turns in to a red giant.... Yeah, yeah it won't turn in to a red giant until five billion years from now, but it will turn sufficiently luminous in only half a billion years that our occeans will evaporate away. So we'd better move out of here...We'd certainly better move out of here by half a billion years or a few billion years from now because the place will become unbearably hot, and the occeans will be gone, and certainly by a billion years from now it's hard to conceive of life consisting on earth..."<br /><br />http://www.teach12.com/store/professor.asp?ID=20<br /><br />
 
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3488

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A good excercise would be to do a simulation exchanging our Sun for say Aldebaran / Alpha Tauri or Arcturus / Alpha Bootis. Both are in the ball park of 140 solar luminosity, about 40 times the diameter of our Sun, both rotate very slowly, about once every eighteen months for Arcturus & about two years for Aldebaran.<br /><br />In about 700 million years time, the Sun will already be bright enough to have evaporated all of the oceans, rivers & lakes, & soon after, dependant on the strength of the Earth,s magnetosphere, the atmosphere too. The Earth I reckon in less than 2 billion years will be like a large version of Mercury, airless & barren, perhaps maintaining a very thin poisonous atmosphere, made of heavy gases from volcanoes, whos activity will be declining, do to the thickening of the Earth's crust & the slowing down & the eventual cesation of Plate Tectonics.<br /><br />I saw once that the surface temperature of Earth will eventually in about 4 Giga years time reach at least 1,500 Celsius, probably very much more, enough to more than convert Earth to a ball of molten rock & metal. <br /><br />Survivability, forget it, it is a pipe dream, nothing more, unless the Earth can be moved out to at least the orbit of Jupiter, if not a bit further out during the initial red giant phase. This is before the Sun even evolves into a red SUPERGIANT!!!<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>
 
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witgenestone

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Humans hasn't changed significantly in 10000 years. I think we must handle our problems at our present form (at least for now). I'm more optimistic regarding an intellectual evolution. <br /><br /><br />
 
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newtonian

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nexium - On your last post - that seems a tenable model to me ]- though obviously not the standard model prediction. I.e.<br /><br />Sun at red giant phase:<br /><br />radius 50 million miles.<br />surface temperature of earth without efforts to change it: 500 degrees C.<br /><br />That is the model I considered in the many posts on previous pages of this thread.<br /><br />Note, of course, that we would not allow oceans to evaporate away. Nor would we allow the atmosphere to be lost. Oceans will be covered by insulated layers (multiple), and these layers will go so high up that virtually all of earth's atmosphere will be contained within said layers.<br /><br />Simply - Near zero atmosphere loss (perhaps even harvesting of hydrogen from space during white dwarf phase) and zero loss of water (though some will be converted to hydrogen (e.g. by electrolysis from electricity from steam turbines run by ocean desalanization by red giant heat) for storage at successive layers to lower the weight of the multiple levels - the oxygen will be for upper thin atmosphere levels for easier breathing, and also for storage for a source for heat (by heat producing oxidation chemical reactions, especially human metabolism) during white dwarf phase)<br /><br />See methods for doing this which I already posted.<br /><br />Here are some added methods and/or details:<br /><br />1. Virtually all of the earth will be covered with multiple layers of occupation. * The top layer will be reserved mostly for ore smelting and glass production and other industries requiring much heat.<br /><br />As stated earlier, earth's crust is abundant in both aluminum and silica for glass. We will smelt the vast majority of aluminum in earth's crust during red giant phase, and the hot phases preceeding red giant phase at a much slower rate.<br /><br />As a result, what is now a problem, i.e. the energy needed to produce aluminum for various uses, will be a plus during red giant phase. The energy for aluminum smelting
 
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newtonian

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nexium - In response to your excellent earlier post - you posted (in part):<br /><br />"Insulation will slow the transfer of heat but will not stop heat invasion, so air conditioning is needed to remove the heat that leaks though the insulation. Air conditioning moves heat to a hotter place, and must be multi stage if the condenser location is hundreds of degrees c hotter than the cooled volume. I suspect 1000 degrees c is not possible, as the heat of inefficiency must also be removed at each stage."<br /><br />That is correct, and can be adapted for in many ways. Here is one idea:<br /><br />2. Geothermal heating and cooling plus adiabatic alternative to air conditioning.<br /><br />Of course, I am not saying air conditioners will not exist - but rather that most cooling during red giant phase will not require any machines.<br /><br />In short: We will need to make massive use of geothermal cooling during red giant phase, and massive use of geothermal heating during white dwarf stage.<br /><br />One idea involves the above posts thousands of 10 foot high levels of occupation, and those shafts containing hot air from the top level.<br /><br />The simplest form of insulation would, of course, be trapped air. That would, of course, be beneath more advanced insulation methods, notably top level vacuum layered glass, etc., to prevent atmosphere loss in case of breaching by .....<br /><br />Consider therefore a mere 100 levels, or even much less above most of earth's atmosphere.<br /><br />Instead, we could have one square mile (roughly) parks involving 10 to 100 thousand feet elevation difference. These would be bounded by thousands of levels of mostly dwellings, but also parks and ski slopes, in a serrated (very deeply uneven) edge at levels where temperature is survivable by humans.<br /><br />The higher elevation plan would bottom out deep into earth's crust. [the lower elevation plan will bottom out at extremophile ocean parks with environments similar to ocean thermal vents - ex
 
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newtonian

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You all who I have not responded to yet.<br /><br />Please be patient, I will respond.<br /><br />I (we) have just entered winter freezing - a very busy time for organic gardeners! <br /><br />I will certainly respond within 5 billion ........
 
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newtonian

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crazyeddie - Yes, it is odd. Too much TV I guess.<br /><br />I had heard the model that predicts earth's carbonates will be heated before red giant phase, releasing huge amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere and causing a runaway greenhouse effect that would render earth similar to current conditions on Venus.<br /><br />Of course, it would make no sense to simply sit back and let that happen.<br /><br />Carbonates could be induced to release CO2 into enclosed greenhouses that do not leak or leak only into a closed system as I outlined above, or some other closed system model.<br /><br />Plants would then convert CO2 and water, and soil, etc., into carbohydrates and food. A much better scenario with food for trillions, if not quadrillions, of people.<br /><br />Now to examine your link on moving the earth. <br /><br />Thank you for the link, btw.
 
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newtonian

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crazyeddie - Interesting link on moving the earth out to the edge of our solar system during red giant phase.<br /><br />Overkill, don't you think?<br /><br />Not to mention having earth cross the asteroid belt and perhaps Mar's orbit, etc.<br /><br />It's nice to know, though, that we do have that option.<br /><br />I would think a smaller nudge to put us in the 500C sector rather than 1,000C and certainly rather than vaporization.<br /><br />However, that may not be necessary. Models differ on the future earth's orbit - and your link illustrates this by putting back our sun's entry into red giant phase 2 billion years more distant than the typically quoted 5 billion years.<br /><br />To quote your link:<br /><br />"Experts give it some 7 billion years, when it will turn into a bloated red giant."<br /><br />Now, why, do you suppose, those extra 2 billion years were added to the estimate?<br /><br />I suspect the standard model may be off somewhat for our sun - as in nexium's posted estimate of 8 billion years.<br /><br />One reason, as I have stated, is the assumption of zero mixiing from core to surface for our sun.<br /><br />Mixing would delay entry into red giant phase since more hydrogen would become gradually available in the core for nuclear fusion into helium.<br /><br />Another reason the predictions may be wrong is the estimated mass of our sun upon entry into red giant phase.<br /><br />The longer our sun delays entry, the less mass our sun will have - and not simply because of fusion of more hydrogen.<br /><br />The solar wind and solar flares, etc., also continually reduce the sun's mass.<br /><br />The lower the sun's mass becomes, the more distant earth's orbit will become, and the safer earth will be without moving it.<br /><br />The solar wind, btw, does not just eject radiation energy. It also ejects particles with mass.<br /><br />A rough estimate is 1 million tons per second of electrons and protons and helium nuclei [from: "The World of Science," 1991, Vol. 7, p. 109]. <br></br>
 
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newtonian

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3488 (Andrew Brown) - Well, yes that would be a good exercise.<br /><br />Thank you for your post. <br /><br />Do you propose our sun will be about 40 times its current diameter - the comparison you cite?<br /><br />In that case, my above scenario of about 500C for earth's surface temperature is about right.<br /><br />However, you estimate 1500C.<br /><br />May I ask where you got that estimate from?<br /><br />Earth's crust and volcanoes - an important consideration in view of my above model - have you read it and why do you consider it a pipe dream?<br /><br />I propose, as above, using red giant heat to heat earth's crust - I don't know whether the crust will continue to thicken at its lower extremity interacting with earth's mantle.<br /><br />Again, where are you getting this information?<br /><br />I do agree earth's crust has been thickening, btw. And I also suspect continental drift and plate tectonics have been slowing from a catastrophic event in the past which involved earth in upheaval.<br /><br />That is a tangent, btw. [I like tangents.]<br /><br />Earth's atmosphere can be captured - see my above model.<br /><br />Earth's oceans boiling can be controled in sections for production of electricity by steam turbines and hydroelectric turbines - again, see my above model.<br /><br />Is there some reason you think my model would not work?<br /><br />Solar desalinization on a vastly smaller scale is already being done, btw.<br /><br />What is 4 Giga years????????<br /><br />On your suggestion that earth will become a ball of molten rock and metal - that is, of course, in contradiction with thickening of earth's crust.<br /><br />Note the subject theme you are responding on: Red Giant aluminum.<br /><br />That is from my model - again controled smelting of metal ores rather than simply letting earth be destroyed.<br /><br />Controled smelting eleminates the need for energy for production of aluminum and glass - two main structural ingredients in my above model whence this subject theme arose
 
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newtonian

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stevehw33 - Again, you are ignoring what we could do to save earth - like some other posters. <br /><br />I agree that if we do nothing, we would be destroyed unless, of course, one believes in the Bible as I do - see Revelation 21:3,4. The latter source assures us that God's tent of protection will be with mankind - which is likely why the Bible predicts earth will be a paradise forever.<br /><br />For me, this thread is, therefore, science fiction entertainment.<br /><br />Still, I am interested in how you feel about various details of my model - since it may be we were meant to work at making and keeping earth a paradise.<br /><br />Compare, for example, New Orlean's future with global warming and rising sea levels. If only a little is done, as has been the case, New Orleans will, of course, be destroyed. However, there are many things that we could do to save New Orleans. But will we really work sufficiently hard to save either New Orleans or planet earth?<br /><br />Of course, current global warming is far more important at this time than future heating from our sun's upcoming changes in properties (aka evolution).
 
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newtonian

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stevehw33 - On your next post, you posted:<br /><br />"look, steam engines are NOT going to work. If the outside temp of a steam engine is higher than the boiling point of water, the condensation cycle which makes the steam engine work cannot be there....."<br /><br />Apparently, you have not read the details of my model. <br /><br />The turbines will operate in an environment similar to today's steam turbines. Or steam engines, which is not what I had detailed but that is also possible. I simply considered electricity generation by this means.<br /><br />Remember, my model has the entire earth, except for two 1.5 sq. mile or so parks at the poles, covered over by multiple insulating layers taking billions of years to complete with help from robotics and technology. We already have the technology to do it, btw. <br /><br />My model has only certain sections heated by red giant heat to desalinize ocean water and produce steam to drive electric turbines.<br /><br />[Other areas will use red giant heat to smelt metal ores, notably bauxite to aluminum, and to produce glass, etc., from abundant materials in earth's crust.]<br /><br />There will be a very good thermodynamic temperature difference due to insulation of the cooler earth's crust and oceans from outside the system* model where surface temperatures will be close to 500C.<br /><br />*[Note: Remember, my model is virtually a closed system. Most posts here assume we will not protect earth with a closed system. Not totally closed, but red giant heat will be allowed to enter only in ways that can be used to our benefit - and there are many ways I have not posted on yet, btw. They can be summed up as the benefits of an abundant source of free energy for an incredible variety of uses.]<br /><br />These ocean vaporization (desalinization) sections will be sealed off from the rest of the ocean, and allowed to decrease in elevation to the ocean floor. <br /><br />Then there will still be more energy available as higher elevation s
 
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MeteorWayne

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Newtonian, <br />You have a fatal flaw. If you insulate the sun from the outside, then you also trap the natural heat of the earth from radioactive decay inside. At equilibrium, it will be several thousand degrees under your insulator.<br />We don't notice this because the heat radiates into space, but if you stop that, we get a fever.<br /><br />MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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newtonian

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MeteorWayne - Several thousand degrees? That's hotter than the surface of the sun - where do you get that figure?<br /><br />Even now, doesn't earth receive more heat than it sheds?<br /><br />Earth is already insulated, of course - by the crust itself. Not good insulation but it takes time for the heat to radiate out.<br /><br />One solution I think I posted on way back in this thread:<br /><br />Open air aluminum smelting, heating the open blast furnace hotter that the surface of earth, i.e. hotter than 500C, and thus radiating heat out - especially at night.<br /><br />Remember, also, that red giant phase is relatively short compared with the period of cooler main sequence preceeding it and compared with white dwarf stage cooling for untold trillions of years thereafter (until we interact with another universe, or whatever.).<br /><br />Current global warming is thought to be due to the greenhouse effect trapping solar heat, not trapping geothermal heat.<br /><br />Of course, insulation would be the answer - insulating below earth's crust also then.<br /><br />Note I proposed cooling earth's crust now by utilizing geothermal heat for heating (as is done, I think, in one area of Iceland.) <br /><br />Earth's crust is massive and way cooler than 500C - it should be able to absorb much of the red giant heat along with core heat from radioactivity.<br /><br />Your post is extremely important for survival during white dwarf phase.<br /><br />Do you have a link or reference? <br /><br />I am also interested in the temperature at various depths from near the surface (as in deep mines) down to earth's core.<br /><br />And the time it takes for heat to radiate out the distance from core to surface.<br /><br />Another solution is, of course, to allow volcanoes to vent to outside the mostly closed system.<br /><br />Stevehw33 already posted a lava temp of 2,000 C.
 
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newtonian

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MeteorWayne - Doing some research myself - note degrees K is 273 above degrees C, ie 0 C = 273 K = 32 F.<br /><br />From "The World of Science," vol.7, p. 29:<br /><br />Surface crust average temp: 290K<br />base of crust: 700K<br />core: 4,000K <br /><br />The crust is 10 - 40 km thick - note my model has us mining most of earth's crust and building levels basically to the base of the crust.<br /><br />Back to reality - how fast does the core heat of earth radiate out?<br /><br />As I said above, and thank you for the tweaking again, clearly we must insulate not only from above but also from below.<br /><br />Since lava is 2,000C, but base of crust is less than 500C, there must be another source of heat for volcanoes - friction from tectonic movement or tidal interactions or both???<br /><br />Interestingly, if we can survive contact with a 4,000 K core, we should be able to survive a 500C, or even a 2,000 C, surface.<br /><br />Time is a factor - like how long will red giant phase last - ie how long would we need to insulate?
 
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MeteorWayne

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You can't insulate from both sides. Where will the cool come from? Once you insulate above the surface, everything will reach equilibrium at the core temperature. How many KY does it take?<br />An interesting question that I don't have a quick answer to. I'll try and find out.<br />The only reason it's cooler up here is that the heat radiates into space. Stop that radiation, and we cook.<br /><br />It's broiler vs oven <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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newtonian

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MeteorWayne - Cool answer to a hot topic!<br /><br />Another cool answer: the cool is already here! The upper crust is cool (290K) and very massive. It takes a long time to heat a large mass.<br /><br />Note above one method already posted - I know I posted allot!<br /><br />The cool can come from using heat to drive chemical reactions that consume heat - in effect storing the heat chemically for later use in white dwarf stage.<br /><br />It also helps to have a massive cool upper crust - 290K is cool!<br /><br />And cool oceans.<br /><br />Perhaps we could cool it further in preparation - by use of geothermal heat.<br /><br />And also by building up massive amounts of ice. This could be done in temperate zones in winter by using heat exchangers.<br /><br />Obviously we have to stop the destruction of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets.<br /><br />If we do get an ice age, as stevehw33 suggested, we could also preserve that cold for later use.<br /><br />Why can't you insulate from both sides - preserving the already existing cool - albeit not completely since we want earth's crust to heat up for later use in white dwarf stage. <br /><br />But bowing to your wisdom - why not enclose most of the atmosphere, as detailed above.<br /><br />Then, at night, radiate heat out into space since radiation of heat should be very effecient with only a very thin atmosphere above. Again, open air aluminum smelting comes to mind as a heat radiative source - heat for smelting provided by heat exchangers from cooler internal environment - cp air conditioners but more extreme. <br /><br />Daytime insulate, nightime radiate.
 
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newtonian

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crazyeddie - Other posters consider my ideas quite workable - why do you consider them whacky?<br /><br />Do you think, for example, that red giant heat could not be used to smelt aluminum from bauxite or other minerals?<br /><br />Do you doubt that aluminum is an abundant element in earth's crust?<br /><br />Do you doubt that red giant heat could be used to facilitate the production of huge amounts of glass from silica and other minerals in earth's crust - which minerals are also extremely abundant in earth's crust?<br /><br />Why do you think we must become god-like to accomplish the building projects I considered above?<br /><br />And - remember - this thread is mostly entertainment for me.<br /><br />That is: fun - quite the opposite of distress!<br /><br />You see, I like science fiction. And the more accurate science is included in the science fiction - the more interesting I find it.<br /><br />You would deny me my fun????<br /><br />BTW - I do not believe in fate. We can change our future - it is not sealed.<br /><br />My question to you is: Just how far do you think human technology will advance in 5 billion years? Consider for example, how much advancement man has made in the fields of robotics, AI (artificial intelligence), computer technology, and materials science including manufacture of new materials such as aerogel, and various types of glass, and various types of aluminum and other metal alloys, and superconductors - all in a mere 100 years or so!!!!!!!<br /><br />I think you underestimate what man, even without God's help, could accomplish in a million years, let alone 5 billion years!<br /><br />In fact, what we now can accomplish would likely be considered god-like to humans 2,000 years ago!<br /><br />And with God's help and blessing - I doubt I have even scratched the surface of our future abilities to engineering and construct!<br /><br />BTW - remember I appreciated your link - no need to respond in an adverserial way - though feel free to do so.
 
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