THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE : A Lost Caste

vogon13 · Jul 14, 2008

<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/1/14/11d1d3da-e2b1-4741-be80-e25421ff7a74.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> There is now no class to fit Dr. Hardy-  That is from chapter 25, The Captain's Motie. The implication is startling and disturbing. There was a class that fit Dr. Hardy at one time, and now there isn't.  Seems like the Massacre of the Doctor's was not a unique attempt in Motie history.  The difference being, in this case, the destruction of a caste was successful.  Recall the Moties had tried everything in their Crazy Eddie attempts to stop the Cycles, and we now have evidence for something else that did not work. What do we call this caste?  Monks, Priests, Pastors, etc. all imply, perhaps, a nongeneric term, where I think we should have one.  I propose "acolyte" for this caste, but would entertain other suggestions for this lost caste.     <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

crazyeddie · Jul 16, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>   There is now no class to fit Dr. Hardy-  That is from chapter 25, The Captain's Motie. The implication is startling and disturbing. There was a class that fit Dr. Hardy at one time, and now there isn't.  Seems like the Massacre of the Doctor's was not a unique attempt in Motie history.  The difference being, in this case, the destruction of a caste was successful.  Recall the Moties had tried everything in their Crazy Eddie attempts to stop the Cycles, and we now have evidence for something else that did not work. What do we call this caste?  Monks, Priests, Pastors, etc. all imply, perhaps, a nongeneric term, where I think we should have one.  I propose "acolyte" for this caste, but would entertain other suggestions for this lost caste.     Posted by vogon13</DIV>As you can discern from my screen handle, this was one of my all-time favorite novels, but I must admit that I was unaware of this puzzle.  I'll have to give it some thought.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

tampaDreamer · Jul 16, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>   There is now no class to fit Dr. Hardy-  That is from chapter 25, The Captain's Motie. The implication is startling and disturbing. There was a class that fit Dr. Hardy at one time, and now there isn't.  Seems like the Massacre of the Doctor's was not a unique attempt in Motie history.  The difference being, in this case, the destruction of a caste was successful.  Recall the Moties had tried everything in their Crazy Eddie attempts to stop the Cycles, and we now have evidence for something else that did not work. What do we call this caste?  Monks, Priests, Pastors, etc. all imply, perhaps, a nongeneric term, where I think we should have one.  I propose "acolyte" for this caste, but would entertain other suggestions for this lost caste.     Posted by vogon13</DIV> I loved this book, but it has been a long time.  I assume "the cycles" is referring to their need to breed, but what you are saying leaves me confused.  Can you explain a little more please? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

jmilsom · Jul 16, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>   There is now no class to fit Dr. Hardy-  That is from chapter 25, The Captain's Motie. The implication is startling and disturbing. There was a class that fit Dr. Hardy at one time, and now there isn't.  Seems like the Massacre of the Doctor's was not a unique attempt in Motie history.  The difference being, in this case, the destruction of a caste was successful.  Recall the Moties had tried everything in their Crazy Eddie attempts to stop the Cycles, and we now have evidence for something else that did not work. What do we call this caste?  Monks, Priests, Pastors, etc. all imply, perhaps, a nongeneric term, where I think we should have one.  I propose "acolyte" for this caste, but would entertain other suggestions for this lost caste.     Posted by vogon13</DIV>This too is perhaps my favourite Niven book. You are commenting on the marvel of the cycles, but asking the question "What do we call this caste?" How about 'aspirants'?This post reminds me of a scene from the Hitchhikers guide (movie) from which you borrow your handle. The scene after they use the probability drive, turn into wool and vomit colourful threads everywhere. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

vogon13 · Jul 16, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>As you can discern from my screen handle, this was one of my all-time favorite novels, but I must admit that I was unaware of this puzzle.  I'll have to give it some thought.  Posted by crazyeddie</DIV> Prior to the Pluck era, I checked Wiki for a list of all the castes (or classes) of Moties, and suggested they be used in the new forum upgrade for our post rankings (joke turned out to be on me, btw, the Pluckites provide no such reward). I recalled Keepers, and Watchmakers and Farmers and Porters, etc.  but I had wondered if any other classifications would be desireable, but really didn't think of anything.  Artists were precluded by the  museum tour when the Mediators informed the humans that all artwork was communication and was always done by Mediators.  The books mentioned some hybrids, Doctor/Warrior, IIRC, but not much else. I was just pawing thru TMIGE the other day and passage regarding Chaplain Hardy just jumped off the page at me. Of course, there would have been a 'priesthood' class.  It just seems apropo. But it looks like in the lengthy history of the Mote, someone got the idea of breaking the Cycles by killing all the members of the religious caste.   Except for this one mention and inference, there doesn't seem to be anything else about the class.  It even seems I am the first to notice this. I suppose in millions of years and thousands of cycles, it should not be surprising such a thing would be tried.  I note bemusedly, certain religious precepts promulgated in this, our first human cycle, will definitely be looked back upon as hastening our first Collapse.  I also wonder how religions propogate across Cycles, and how they might change as their  adherents realize they might be part of the problem . . . .    <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

vogon13 · Jul 16, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>As you can discern from my screen handle, this was one of my all-time favorite novels, but I must admit that I was unaware of this puzzle.  I'll have to give it some thought.  Posted by crazyeddie</DIV> Prior to the Pluck era, I checked Wiki for a list of all the castes (or classes) of Moties, and suggested they be used in the new forum upgrade for our post rankings (joke turned out to be on me, btw, the Pluckites provide no such reward). I recalled Keepers, and Watchmakers and Farmers and Porters, etc.  but I had wondered if any other classifications would be desireable, but really didn't think of anything.  Artists were precluded by the  museum tour when the Mediators informed the humans that all artwork was communication and was always done by Mediators.  The books mentioned some hybrids, Doctor/Warrior, IIRC, but not much else. I was just pawing thru TMIGE the other day and passage regarding Chaplain Hardy just jumped off the page at me. Of course, there would have been a 'priesthood' class.  It just seems apropo. But it looks like in the lengthy history of the Mote, someone got the idea of breaking the Cycles by killing all the members of the religious caste.   Except for this one mention and inference, there doesn't seem to be anything else about the class.  It even seems I am the first to notice this. I suppose in millions of years and thousands of cycles, it should not be surprising such a thing would be tried.  I note bemusedly, certain religious precepts promulgated in this, our first human cycle, will definitely be looked back upon as hastening our first Collapse.  I also wonder how religions propogate across Cycles, and how they might change as their  adherents realize they might be part of the problem . . . .    <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

vogon13 · Jul 16, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I loved this book, but it has been a long time.  I assume "the cycles" is referring to their need to breed, but what you are saying leaves me confused.  Can you explain a little more please? Posted by tampaDreamer</DIV> The Moties were divided into several types.  Doctors, Engineers, Farmers, Warriors, Masters, Keepers, Mediators, Porters, Meats, Runners, Miniatures, etc.  In the book, a piece of artwork showing Doctors being cut down with a green laser beam is seen in a Motie museum.  The Moties did not discuss the artwork at the time, but later it is revealed that the Doctor type was nearly eliminated in an attempt to break the Cycles. (no doctors imply a higher mortality rate and  perhaps if the death rate is high enough, the population collapses will stop).  In the book, it is revealed that not every Master killed all their doctors, and in the next rise of Motie civilization (after the inevitable collapse) Doctors became the basis for currency. The remark about Chaplain Hardy no longer being represented in a current Motie class implies the Moties are also aware of a 'religious' caste that, unlike the Doctors, were entirely eliminated in the past, presumably to break the Cycles.   Of course this idea was 'Crazy Eddie" and the Cycles continue. I can't find any other discussion of this 'Lost Caste' so I posted this here.  I too am a big fan of TMIGE, and further, I  suspect it is inevitable that humanity will experience Cycles too.  The existence of 'Meats' (a nonsentient edible Motie!) is also discussed, and the Mediators are ashamed that such lifeforms were created.  Another disturbing (and apparently related) aspect of Motie history. (IIRC, no 'Meats' were noted off the Motie homeworld, but it seems to me maintaining a 'herd' on an asteroid would be very difficult since they are nonsentient)     <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

tampaDreamer · Jul 17, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> The Moties were divided into several types.  Doctors, Engineers, Farmers, Warriors, Masters, Keepers, Mediators, Porters, Meats, Runners, Miniatures, etc.  In the book, a piece of artwork showing Doctors being cut down with a green laser beam is seen in a Motie museum.  The Moties did not discuss the artwork at the time, but later it is revealed that the Doctor type was nearly eliminated in an attempt to break the Cycles. (no doctors imply a higher mortality rate and  perhaps if the death rate is high enough, the population collapses will stop).  In the book, it is revealed that not every Master killed all their doctors, and in the next rise of Motie civilization (after the inevitable collapse) Doctors became the basis for currency. The remark about Chaplain Hardy no longer being represented in a current Motie class implies the Moties are also aware of a 'religious' caste that, unlike the Doctors, were entirely eliminated in the past, presumably to break the Cycles.   Of course this idea was 'Crazy Eddie" and the Cycles continue. I can't find any other discussion of this 'Lost Caste' so I posted this here.  I too am a big fan of TMIGE, and further, I  suspect it is inevitable that humanity will experience Cycles too.  The existence of 'Meats' (a nonsentient edible Motie!) is also discussed, and the Mediators are ashamed that such lifeforms were created.  Another disturbing (and apparently related) aspect of Motie history. (IIRC, no 'Meats' were noted off the Motie homeworld, but it seems to me maintaining a 'herd' on an asteroid would be very difficult since they are nonsentient)     Posted by vogon13</DIV>The cycles thing reminds me of Nightfall, by Asimov if memory serves me.  This would be an example of a book about human cycles, although on a different world. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Jul 18, 2008

I've always loved Niven & Pournelle's work and I especially love TMIGE books.  I think the culture they were able to create in the Motie civilization was truly amazing.I'd love to see a mini-series on this.  Done right, I think it would be a big hit.  There's a caste of motie for everyone to enjoy!

I'm fond of the Watchmakers myself.  They remind me of the ultimate gremlin. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

Arion · Jul 21, 2008

I have that book in my library. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

jmilsom · Jul 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I have that book in my library. Posted by Arion</DIV>Have you read it? What did you think?And another comment. Wow. 2,500 posts in six weeks. Watch out vogon, at that rate you'll lose your second place to Arion in just 7 months! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Jul 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Have you read it? What did you think?And another comment. Wow. 2,500 posts in six weeks. Watch out vogon, at that rate you'll lose your second place to Arion in just 7 months! Posted by jmilsom</DIV>I saw his post-spree last night and thought he might just be a very well constructed post-bot.  But, he has seemed to managed some quotes and a good bit of posts that are on-topic without sounding too strange.So, I suppose there's nothing wrong with that but "interaction" on a forum is usually a lot more entertaining if you post something besides "me too."

Not ragging on you Arion. It'd be nice if you slowed down and stopped to chat for awhile though.

<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/3/243928d0-d637-4995-83f0-c92847ca70de.Medium.jpg" alt="" />   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

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THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE : A Lost Caste

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