The Transporter In Star Trek

[heyo]

The very idea of a "soul" is not something that can be proven scientifically. That's going into philosophy and religion, and not science.<br /><br />However, I think that as some of the more advanced physics and cosmology that is being talked about now starts to move forward, some of lines will start to blur.<br /><br />A soul isn't something you can "prove" or should even try to. It's something you believe or you don't.<br /><br />Heyo<br />

 

[newtonian]

RogerInNH- Hi! <br /><br />Note a problem known as semantics which is caused by using different definitions of the same word, in this case: soul.<br /><br />I would agree there is no immortal soul - otherwise why would we need a resurection - we would already be living forever!<br /><br />However, in the Bible the soul is you, every thing that makes you you, so that your soul = your self.<br /><br />Now I am sure you did not mean there is no self or no you!<br />However, you seem to think what makes you you is simply matter.<br /><br />The problem is science has not yet determined how consciousness arises, more specifically self-consciousness. Remember, soul = self.<br /><br />The key to your misunderstanding is that if your body changes you are still you - even if you were resurrected to a spiritual body, i.e an energy based (not matter based) life form.<br /><br />And the transporter is similar to the Bible teaching of resurrection from a physical body to a spiritual body [i.e. in the middle step, where the transporting person is converted to energy rather than matter] - see 1 Corinithians chapter 15.<br /><br />I doubt that merely transporting the atoms of an individual will produce a copy of that individual - although I do have an open mind on the subject.<br /><br />I do not think we completely know scientifically what makes you you - yet.

 

[bobvanx]

>>They cannot demo the existence of what they talk about<br /><br />Steve, I can demo the existance of a person's "self" outside of their brain activity. As you adroitly point out, however, your vast magnitude of flexible scientific tools are not capable of getting this job done. The tools of the ancients, which you dismiss so easily, are the tools that can demonstrate that "self" exists <i>before</i> the material expression. If you wanted them, I could teach you to use these tools.<br /><br />You don't want those tools, you don't trust those tools, you wish they would go away and let Science reign. To you, with your deep knowledge of even such things as the difference between the hard and soft sciences, these ancient tools create chaos and mental disease. (By the way, it did not escape my notice that you have the courage to place the soft sciences on a less secure foundation than the hard sciences).<br /><br />You appear to have an opinion that I mistrust real scientific endeavor, that there is something I don't "get" about it. I beg to differ! I <i>love</i> science! Cause and effect! observation of the phenomenal world! The slow accumulation of accuracy and better understanding of... well, everything we see and feel and hear and taste!<br /><br />

 

[spacester]

Question: Aren't there documented cases of near-death out of body experiences resulting in the person observing and hearing specific things said and done while "temporarally dead", things later verified as accurate?<br /><br />If so, this is strong evidence for a soul. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bobw]

The only serious sort of controlled experiment about that stuff I have read about was some hospital had big red crosses on top of all the lockers, cabinets, etc. and when the people said they "looked down" from outside their body none of them ever saw these markers. I think they are just dreaming. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[newtonian]

Spacestar - that would be a conclusion some have drawn, as noted in the following quotes on the subject:<br /><br />"What I recall while I was in the operating room was it seems like I was just floating up near the ceiling. . . . It was sort of a funny feeling because I was up there and this body was below. . . . I could see them operating on my back. . . . Then I remember Dr. D saying, 'There's the disk. There it is.' At that point, I came down closer to see what was going to happen."-A 42-year-old Missouri woman describing her own operation as she "saw" it.- "Awake!," 10/8/84, p. 3.<br /><br />"In his book Recollections of Death, Dr. Michael Sabom states: "Many of these people, victims of cardiac arrest and other life-threatening crises, recalled a series of extraordinary events that 'took place' while they were unconscious and near death. Some considered this experience to be a privileged glimpse of another realm of existence.""- Ibid, pp 3,4<br /><br />"For example, in tests carried out by physician and professor of medicine Dr. Michael Sabom on those who had an NDE, "a definite decrease in the fear of death and a definite increase in the belief in an afterlife were reported by the vast majority of persons with an NDE."<br /><br />To what conclusion did psychiatrist Dr. Elisabeth Kübler-Ross arrive after checking out over a thousand cases of NDE? In her book On Children and Death she stated: "And so it is with death . . . the end before another beginning. Death is the great transition." She adds: "With further research and further publications, more and more people will know rather than believe that our physical body is truly only the cocoon, the outer shell of the human being. Our inner, true self, the 'butterfly,' is immortal and indestructible and is freed at the moment we call death."<br /><br />Dr. Kenneth Ring, professor of psychology and author of Life at Death, draws the following conclusion: "I do believe . . . that we continue to have a conscious existence after

 

[bobvanx]

>>scientific instrument. Then we will believe<br /><br />Yep. I understand that's when you will believe. Your posts always reflect the "If it hasn't been measured, described, peer reviewed and accepted for twenty years then it is bunk" attitude.<br /><br />I get it. You want evidence that a physically manufactured instrument can sense. That sort of device is what you place your faith in. As do many other people. That's fine: because of this, we have emergency response teams, the Hubble Telescope, and microcircuits. But we don't have a good explanation for self-awareness, do we?<br /><br />Have you been following the failures of AI for as long as I have? If you "believe" that a self-aware computing device is possible, can you understand that is as unsupportable as someone believing that there is life on Mars? Show me the machine that is self-aware and sentient, and then I will accept that sentience is purely a fabrication of chemical processes in the brain. Until such a thing is demonstrated, then all you have is your faith that it is true.<br /><br />I'm asking you to allow that there are... causal modes outside the realm of physical measurement.

 

[bobvanx]

>>even anti-scientific agenda<br /><br />No, I state accurately that science is very good at measuring <i>things</i>. Your consciousness is not a "thing," yet it must be explained. You want me to produce a physical object, labeled "soul." We'll measure it, quantify it, and then publish a report, and only then is it "real."<br /><br />I cannot produce such a thing to be measured with your tools.<br /><br />To me, this is evidence that the entire realm of "science" is a <i>subset</i> of a larger toolbox. To you, science is the universal set of tools. Since some things cannot be measured with your toolbox, they don't exist. <br /><br />So to re-iterate, here's my take on your worldview, and the consequence:<br />Science holds all the tools, so anything immeasurable does not exist. Consequently, since your consciousness can not be measured, it does not exist.<br /><br />Here's my worldview and the consequence:<br />My consciousness clearly exists. It cannot be measured with physical tools, consequently physical tools describe only a portion of reality.

 

[newtonian]

bobvanx - Good point about AI, artificial intellignence attempts by human creators.<br /><br />To me this is evidence of God's superior ability as a Creator to create self- awareness.<br /><br />Note, the definition of soul used most often in the Bible is self.<br /><br />So your point about self-awareness is valid as relating to the soul.

 

[newtonian]

Steve - see my post on out of body and near death experiences. <br /><br />You are ignoring the conflicting interpretations by reputable scientists.<br /><br />Nevertheless, I agree with you in most of these experiences. <br /><br />Note I said most.

 

[Leovinus]

Check out this web site: link. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Astrosag]

I hope its not a rough topic to talk about but you have mentioned many times that you suffer from an illness of some sort and that your lifespan is "short". May ask what you suffer from? I am merely curious and I apologize if I'm intruding...also sorry to deviate a bit (ok quite a bit) from the topic...but it wasn't hardcore science talk to begin with.

 

[rogerinnh]

Here's an intersting thought experiment. Pick a person, any person. Now prove that they are self-aware, that they have self-consciousness. I proprose that the only way you are going to be able to do that is by observing their behavior (i.e. by actual physical measurements) and comparing it to what you "know" to be the usual behaviors of yourself that you attribute to self-consciousness.<br /><br />Now consider some "artificial" being. How will you determine whether or not it has self-consciousness? The only reasonable approach is to apply the very same criteria as you did to the human being. If you dismiss it out of hand because, "it's artificial", then you're not being very objective, are you? The only tools we have are the tools of science, of observation and measurement.<br /><br />

 

[claywoman]

I am suffering from Emphasema, Severe Asthma, Diabetes, High Blood Pressure, and Arthritis plus Clinical Depression. I've got between 5-10 years if I quit smoking...but I have to weigh in here....do I want to give up something I enjoy and make the last few years of my life longer or shorten it and make it happier....

 

[bobvanx]

>>There is NO soul in psychology. That's a terrific objection to your beliefs in the soul. Neither is there one in any kind of scientific brain studies. Again, you ignore these facts.<br /><br />No Steve, I <i>accept</i> these facts. In fact, I point out again and again that science cannot adequately address the issue.<br /><br />You've obviously accepted my statement, that the tools of science aren't up to the task.<br />

 

[newtonian]

claywoman- Sorry to hear of our illnesses.<br /><br />Would you like some assistance? <br /><br />There are specific things you can do to improve your health.<br /><br />One of them is to stop smoking.<br /><br />For diabetes, diet and exercise are helpful. <br /><br />We have had some good articles on your illnesses. Are you interested?

 

[newtonian]

bobvanx - Is there some reason you are responding to Steve but not to me?<br /><br />At any rate, consciousness is real. <br /><br />The latin word for soul is anima. It is the derivation of the English word animal. <br /><br />One reason for this is that animals are souls, as the Bible also notes.<br /><br />Animals are conscious, and the degree of consciousness for animals is much greater than for plants.<br /><br />And science can indeed study consciousness.<br /><br />However, we cannot create consciousness in machines.<br /><br />Again, I agree with your point about AI, artificial intelligence.<br /><br />Now, I am going to do some quote mining- i.e. research, and see what various scientific authorities have to say about this.

 

[newtonian]

bobvanx - OK, quick research turned up these quotes in our literature:<br /><br />Modern researchers have made great strides in understanding the physical makeup of the brain and some of the electrochemical processes that occur in it. They can also explain the circuitry and functioning of an advanced computer. However, there is a vast difference between brain and computer. With your brain you are conscious and are aware of your being, but a computer certainly is not. Why the difference?<br /><br />Frankly, how and why consciousness arises from physical processes in our brain is a mystery. "I don't see how any science can explain that," one neurobiologist commented. Also, Professor James Trefil observed: "What, exactly, it means for a human being to be conscious . . . is the only major question in the sciences that we don't even know how to ask." One reason why is that scientists are using the brain to try to understand the brain. And just studying the physiology of the brain may not be enough. Consciousness is "one of the most profound mysteries of existence," observed Dr. David Chalmers, "but knowledge of the brain alone may not get [scientists] to the bottom of it." <br /><br />And, back to thread theme:<br /><br />Therein lies the problem of the transporter in Star Trek.<br /><br />The circuitry of the brain may be transported.<br /><br />But would consciousness also be transported in this manner????

 

[newtonian]

bobw - Interesting. Do you have any documentation about those red crosses?<br /><br />I agree that in most cases of NDE's they are just dreaming -or hallcinating-a trick of the mind.

 

[claywoman]

Newtonian,<br /><br />Thank you for the offer, but my diabetes is under control. In fact, its so under control that unless I have an infection, my blood sugars are low. My cholestrol is low which blows my dr. away and always has been because I love veggies as much as I do my meat.<br /><br />The emphasema is the hardest to control. Its been over a week since I've had a ciggy, and I miss it desperately! I am one of the people who enjoys smoking, but since this last episode, I can't smoke, although I do take an occasional puff or two maybe once a day. Normallly I don't think about it unless someone does it in front of me....<br /><br />The arthritis is horrible!!! I'm taking drugs to try and slow down the pain, but so far, nothing works. There are times when walking to the kitchen is hard to do....

 

[newtonian]

claywoman - Your welcome.<br /><br />I will temporarily post articles on Arthritis- since you are in pain - please copy them because I will remove them in an edit after a reasonable amount of time.<br /><br />If you want other articles, you could e-mail me at paulharth6@cs.com<br /><br />EDIT:<br /><br />The articlea I have removed on arthritis are in the 12/1/01 Awake!<br /><br />Here are two excerpts on treatment options:<br /><br />Treatment<br /><br />Treatment for arthritis usually involves a combination of medication, exercise, and life-style modification. A physical therapist may initiate a therapeutic exercise program. It may incorporate range-of-motion, isometric, aerobic, and isotonic or weight-bearing exercises. These have been shown to improve a multitude of symptoms including joint pain and swelling, fatigue, malaise, and depression. The benefits of exercise are seen even in the very elderly. Exercise can also limit bone-density loss. Some claim that a measure of pain relief has also been achieved through various forms of heat and cold therapy and acupuncture.<br /><br />Because weight loss can significantly reduce joint pain, diet can be a major component of arthritis management. Some have also claimed that a diet that includes calcium-rich foods such as dark, leafy green vegetables, fresh fruits, and cold-water fish rich in omega-3 fatty acids-and that cuts down on processed foods and saturated fats-can not only help achieve weight loss but also reduce pain. How? Some say that such a diet inhibits the inflammatory process. There are also claims that diets that eliminate meat, milk products, wheat, and vegetables belonging to the nightshade family, such as tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, and eggplant, have also been effective for some.<br /><br />In some cases a surgical procedure called arthroscopy is recommended. This involves inserting an instrument right into a joint, allowing a surgeon to remove the synovial tissue producing the

 

[claywoman]

Thank you Newtonian, I copy and pasted it to my HD...so you can erase it if you wish....<br /><br />I've also used a lot of the suggestions here...

 

[newtonian]

Your welcome.<br /><br />I'll wait till the morning just in case someone else needed the info.

 

[newtonian]

claywoman - I hope that helped. We do have additional information.<br /><br />You all - to segway back to transporters, and specifically whether the entire soul could be transported:<br /><br />Ok, the pain induced by arthritis is one proof of the soul, or self. By contrast, computers and AI do not feel pain nor do they have depression.<br /><br />And one of the cures for depression, love from caring friends, also does not exist in AI or computers. Computers cannot love. Souls can love.<br /><br />Nor would a computer look to the Bible for comfort and hope for permanent solutions. Souls can.<br /><br />In fact, computers do not belong to specific religions, nor does AI.<br /><br />AI cannot worship God, souls can worship God.<br /><br />On the positive side for computers:<br /><br />I am not aware of any computers that are addicted to tobacco smoke!

 

[bobvanx]

>>Is there some reason you are responding to Steve but not to me?<br /><br />Not really, just bad manners and limited time to spend on the boards, so I was rolling my responses together into singular posts.<br /><br />I feel like you and I are on the same page, namely, that our brains, being physical constructs, must leave the rise of consciousness as a mystery.<br /><br />Since I see all the "all" as an expression of Spirit, I see Intelligence flowing from the Top- />down, Inside->out; namely, Spirit gives rise to Self, and Intelligence, which then creates and sustains the vehicle of the brain and body to move in the world of cause and effect (the phenomenological world).<br /><br />I understand the view that spinal chord gave rise to hindbrain to gray matter to brain to intelligence and self-awareness. I got taught that at University. This bottom-up approach leaves you unable to answer the important questions. It also causes you to think that if your physical tools can't measure something, then it isn't real.<br /><br />When I finally got some good instruction about the true fabric of Existence and Non-existence, I saw why physical science will be forever curious, and unable to explain, questions such as "What is a soul," or "why are we here," or even the one that plays out on the boards here, "Why do we keep coming back for more?"