5th state of matter?

[ihwip]

There seems to be a pattern that emerges with atomic particles.<br /><br />The more pressure the more solid they get, the more heat the more gaseous they get.<br /><br />We have our main 3 states. Solid, liquid, gas. When things get heated enough we call it plasma but shouldn't there be a 5th, less visible state of matter at the core of stars?<br /><br />When gravitational compression is intense enough shouldn't that compress plasma back into a solid state?<br /><br />I think that we need to declare the cores of stars a 5th state. It does not make sense that something so compressed and dense would still be considered a plasma.

 

[doubletruncation]

This is a very good question I think.<br /><br />There are many different "states" of matter - superconductivity, superfluidity, ferromagnetism, diamagnetism etc etc are different phase of matter. So I think you'd be right in saying that there are more states than just solid, liquid, gas and plasma. <br /><br />Re. the gravitational compression turning plasma back into a solid state. The answer is that, yes, it can do that. That is what happens in a white dwarf, a brown dwarf or a neutron star - in these cases the material is in a different (called "degenerate") state of matter that behaves much more like a solid than like a fluid - for a white dwarf or a brown dwarf its probably most similar to a metal. Whether a subtance would be in this state or in the plasma fluid state depends on both the temperature and the density. For a star like the sun, the central temperature is about 15 million K and the density is about 160 g/cm^3 (so 160 times denser than ordinary liquid water at room temperature) - at those values the material would actually still be in the plasma state and would not be degenerate. As the sun evolves its center collapses, and the density increases. For a smaller star like the sun, at some point its temperature won't be hot enough to prevent the material at the high density from undergoing a phase change into the degenerate state, at that point the sun stops evolving and it ends its life as a white dwarf. More massive stars can have much hotter temperatures that allow them to have much higher densities. These stars can continue to collapse and evolve until they enter the neutron-matter state, or in the case of exceptionally large stars they collapse into a black hole. <br /><br />Actually, the sun will likely enter a degenerate state even before it ends up as a white dwarf - as a red giant its core becomes degenerate and undergoes a run-away nuclear reaction which gives rise to the so-called helium flash which will bring it back into the plasma state <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jeyaraman]

Interesting..

 

[michaelmozina]

http://arxiv.org/abs/nucl-th/0511051<br /><br />I would say that the 5th state of matter *could* be a neutron star. Here is a very nice primer on the concept:<br /><br />http://www.astro.umd.edu/~miller/nstar.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[sphynx]

¿Then, the star of quarks or strange star, would be the 6º state of the matter…? <br /><br />http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/02_releases/press_041002.html<br /> <br />

 

[michaelmozina]

Man! It sure seems like there are a lot different states of matter. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <br /><br />That was a very interesting idea. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[tom_hobbes]

It is after all a life of matter and death. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#339966"> I wish I could remember<br /> But my selective memory<br /> Won't let me</font><font size="2" color="#99cc00"> </font><font size="3" color="#339966"><font size="2">- </font></font><font size="1" color="#339966">Mark Oliver Everett</font></p><p> </p> </div>

 

[search]

Entertaining:<br />http://www.5th-state-of-matter.info/5th-state.html<br /><br />also...<br />http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2006-01/1137860037.Ph.r.html

 

[michaelmozina]

Ya know.....<br /><br />That first link in particular is very interesting to me for a variety of reasons, and it explains very nicely some the solar features that are not otherwise easily explained in terms of plasma and electricity alone. Thank you very much for that link. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[search]

Sometimes its not The Answer we should look for but which Question.<br /><br />"Spark, lightning, ion beam, mercury-filament (in mercury-lamps) and electron beam in TV have a characteristic cylinder-form with exact circular cross section, a well defined matter and a measurable particle-energy, however nobody asks in which state of matter they are?"<br /><br />I am glad you liked it.

 

[michaelmozina]

The notion of organized BEC's transfering energy inside of circular beams explains some of the more unusual observations near the poles of the sun, particularly at the north and south ends of the solar magnetic field.<br /><br />http://thesurfaceofthesun.com/videolinks.htm<br /><br />If you scroll down this page, the last few images on the right show just such organized structures concentrated near the poles of our own sun. Birkeland also noticed these sames sorts of discharge "beams" in his lab experiments.<br /><br />http://thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/birkelandyohkohmini.jpg<br /><br />At a glance, the energy, and plasma flow of the sun looks "almost" one directional with plasma constantly flowing off the surface in almost all directions constantly. If however we consider the notion that energy can also enter the system through such BEC structures, this may explain how a "circuit" is being formed with the greater universe.<br /><br />I'm fascinated by that link, and that idea. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[nexium]

My guess is twenty states of matter is reasonable. Some candidates are vapors which are somewhat different than gases, plasma such as inside a florescent tube. plasma such as in the atmosphere of the Sun = all the electrons striped from the nucleus of atoms. White star stuff, neutronium = nuetron star stuff, quark star stuff, Bose-Eistein condensate. Neil

 

[search]

Interesting your website.<br /><br />Just to clarify: <br /><br />"if however we consider the notion that energy can also enter the system through such BEC structures, this may explain how a "circuit" is being formed with the greater universe." <br /><br />When you say "system" you are refering to the Universe as "a system"?<br /><br />If so, have you thought about researching the Einstein Cosmological Constant and incorporating it into your theory. After all if the Universe is expanding and accelerating then the missing matter required to satisfy this observations is either already in the Universe or must come from somewhere.

 

[search]

We must distinguish between "different states of matter" and "differences in the different states of matter".<br /><br />If we are going to count the states based on the differences then we would say that Bose-Einstein Condensation is different than quark-gluon plasma. In reality it is. BEC is atoms very coooooold, QGP is atoms very hoooooot (notice that I used the same amount of "o").<br /><br />However what happens to the atoms is nearly the same and therefore the 5th state of matter.