A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 4)

[a_lost_packet_]

<font color="yellow">ZenOnMars - I really hate to do this to you guys, but I am having a severe change of heart... Now don't get me wrong, I still think the Cydonian plain contains the ruins of an ancient Martian civilization. I still think Depietro, Molinaare, Hoagland, et al are correct about the tetrahedral geometry encoded in the angles of the D&M, and replicated between the annomalous objects strewn across Cydonia. I also believe stuff you guys would probably have major problems with, such as the "global grid math" of Carl Munck, and the re-integrating work of David Hancock. But today's problem is this: I have just been exposed to a new interpretation of the D&M. It so far seems NOT to contradict Hoagland's tetrahedral geometry, but may require some "re-mapping" on the part of the present players here. Forgive me. His name is Bob Wonderland, and here is his website: Bob posted his newest D&M interpretations this week on the Enterprise mission boards. His "lines" acknowledge the "platform" on which the D&M sits, but "sees" the shape in another, most unusual manner: UPSIDE DOWN!!! ....</font><br /><br />Zen, do you not see why I say you do not stop and listen to answers? ...Especially those which contradict RCH-approved-right-thinking?<br /><br />Yet another post which attempts to derail the (then) current discussion of the lines drawn all over fuzzy images that RCH says are significant... to somebody.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<font color="yellow">ZenOnMars - Plaitt right or wrong? Max drawing lines? Giant Rats of Cydonia? It just doesn't matter. We have to make the "jump to light speed", as a species, so to speak. We are arguing about whether someone made that jump nearby, a "long, long time ago". </font><br /><br />No. That is not what we are arguing about. We are arguing about whether or not the formations on Mars have any credible evidence which suggests an artificial nature.<br /><br />You post is just an attempt to difuse the precarious situation that the RCH-follower team has in this thread. Do not attempt to redirect focus to another issue entirely.<br /><br />What "tetrahedron" structures? What forms the tetrahedrons? Where would the anchor points lie? Why are the angles listed as exact and then the exactness used as a self-proof when requests for exact "anchor points" so that the reasoning can be evaluated are denied?<br /><br />Instead, we get, (summarized) "How much of a fudge-factor will you give us?"<br /><br />The untouchable, sacred cow of the mathematical significance of the Cydonia "equation" is based upon "exact numbers" which are derivatives of numbers arbitrarily rounded, dropped by orders of magnitude and "inferred" by RCH-followers. Why are we not allowed to challenge those assumptions?<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

OK, I have checked the Nature paper, the associated material and some related literature.<br /><br />Previous Mars missions (especially the Russian Mars series) showed that the Martian magnetic field is very weak, consistent with the lack of a global dynamo. The Mars Global Surveyor Magnetic Field Experiment has demonstrated the presence of strong remnant magnetism from a reversing dynamo in parts of the southern highlands, the oldest crust of Mars, roughly speaking going back 3.5 4.5 Ga (Noachian epoch). The primary source for this is http://mgs-mager.gsfc.nasa.gov/publications/grl_28_connerney/grl_28_connerney_paper.html. These and other authors argued that the absence of strong remnant magnetic fields in the Hellas basin (3.9 Ga) means that the dynamo had shut off by then. <br /><br />The recent Nature paper by Carporzen and others, suggests that this inference is flawed. Based on field studies in the Vredeforte basin in South Africa (the largest on earth), very large impacts demagnetise the basement rock and the basin fill, although strongly magnetised, is essentially randomised, leading to a very weak overall local field. Thus the absence of a magnetic field in the Hellas Basin cannot be used to infer the absence of a global dynamo in the later Noachian. <br /><br />This is all fair enough. However the absence of strong remnant magnetism in younger crustal sequences (Hesperian and Amazonian) means that the dynamo must have shut down by about 3.5 Ga. So at most the study of Carporzen and others adds a 400-500 My to the life of the dynamo (another 10% of the history of Mars). So basically H4a is false.<br /><br />Jon<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Telfrow:<br /><br />Towards the end of Pt 3 you posted a side by side image of the "pyramid", the left hand with a pentagon drawn on it, the other the basic image. A couple of questions:<br /><br />What was the source of the two images?<br /><br />What was the base image of the one with the superimposed pentagon?<br /><br />Sorry if you posed this info already, but there are a lot of posts to search through looking for it.<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[najab]

If my recollection is correct, the side with the pentagon was from the link that Zen posted to Bob Wonderland's site.

 

[telfrow]

My side came from:<br /><br />http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/09/15/ <br /><br />I have no idea what the ID for the one posted at Bob's Wondereland is. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

That's IT? That's all you can comment on? You are NOT assigned a space unless you don't care where you're placed.... which can happen. I've lots of experience going to trade shows... you get to CHOOSE from available space.... location, location, location. But who cares anyway. It isn't important and you won't listen to reason.<br /><br />What about your buddy Plait and his pseudoscientific ways? What about Jon's weak response to my pointed questions?<br /><br />BTW... Jon. I'm leaving my response to you as is. No need to go further. You don't read, you don't care enough to edit your posts, you never once give the AOC an honest chance....you aren't serious in the least. It's become crystal clear that you are a bonafied Pseudoscientist. Go ahead and say it "Cydonia is ANYTHING but artificial".

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">Also, I did find the margin of error reference in Monuments.... It's +/- 3 degrees in either direction. So 33 could measure 30 or 36. Ok? I would expect your experiment to be even more off. If you used the color/ir I would say double it. With your image, I would say more. How much more? I dunno, what do you think?</font><br /><br />I think that’s one heck of a margin of error, Max. <br /><br /><b>Double</b> it if we use the IR photograph? Six degrees off each side? Twelve degrees total margin? And even more if we use the high resolution?<br /><br />No offense, Max, but you’ve <i>got</i> to be kidding. Three degrees off each side of the line is bad enough…when I said three degrees, I was talking about 1.5 degrees from either side of the line.<br /><br />So you’re saying if we use the IR photo, and double the 3 degrees (see the attached from Torun):<br /> <br />Line A can be anywhere between 54 or 66… <br />Line B can be anywhere between 114 to 126…<br /><br />And the most common angle relationships on Cydonia (22.5 and 19.5), effectively become <i>any</i> angle between 13.5 and 28.5? <br /><br />And if we use “my” photo, a 60 degree angle could be anywhere between – what? 50 and 70 degrees? And those “mystical” angles become anything between 10 to 30 degrees?<br /><br />Deck’s a bit stacked in your favor, don’t you think? <br /><br />Let’s let everyone else in on this. Guys: what’s an acceptable margin of error? <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Lost: <font color="yellow">Where would the anchor points lie?</font><br /><br />I believe Telfrow was about to get to that.....

 

[maxtheknife]

Telf, the book is at home.... I'll go into detail for you later. K? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />And no,,, 3 degrees off each side....based on '76 imagery.....<br /><br />I gotta get to work...

 

[maxtheknife]

Why don't you just try to superimpose the above pentagon on the D&M? See if it fits..... U may have to resize it.... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Gotta go, gotta go!

 

[telfrow]

And I still say, that if this experiment is to be valid, someone from your "side" needs to provide anchor points that are aligned with recognizable features....and not just a general area.<br /><br />I'll do it, just to move this thing along, after I recover from what's happening later today, but I know that if the results don't come out the way "your side" expects them to, my choices will be targeted as "biased." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

If I could figure out how to do a transparent background on PhotoShop, I would. Anyone out there know how to do it? I've tried and can't seem to get it to work. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[najab]

Most of the "meaningful relationships" claimed for the "message" in the geometry break down if the measurements are more than 1 degree off either way. So that sounds like the upper limit to me. But let's be generous and double it. 2 degrees plus/minus.

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">And no,,, 3 degrees off each side....based on '76 imagery.....</font><br /><br />We're not using the 76 image...so shouldn't the margin of error be less with higher resolution photos? <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[najab]

><i>And no,,, 3 degrees off each side....based on '76 imagery..... </i><p>So wait, you're saying we can't use "the best data available"?</p>

 

[telfrow]

[Insert music clip here..]<br /><br />"We're on the road to no where..." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">BTW... Jon. I'm leaving my response to you as is. No need to go further. You don't read, you don't care enough to edit your posts, you never once give the AOC an honest chance....you aren't serious in the least. It's become crystal clear that you are a bonafied Pseudoscientist. Go ahead and say it "Cydonia is ANYTHING but artificial". </font><br /><br />Top 10 Traits of the Pseudoscientist <br />http://paul.merton.ox.ac.uk/science/pseudoscientist.html<br /><br />1. You believe your subscription to Analog provides the necessary background to argue with PhD scientists. <br /><br />10. Your college degree (if you have one) and your pseudoscientist interests have absolutely nothing in common. For instance, you may be arguing about fusion with a PhD in nuclear physics (and inflating your ego by doing so), while you only have a nursing degree. <br /><br />http://aca.mq.edu.au/People/jclarke.htm<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

To najaB's point...<br /><br />Here's a map of the region showing the relationships.<br /><br />If (any one of) the angles are off by the 3 degrees (in either direction) you are suggesting as a margin of error, the realtionships crumble. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

The map... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[najab]

But that doesn't matter since, according to Zen, the hyperdimensional nature of the message means that even if they don't line up, they still fit the message. <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">Why don't you just try to superimpose the above pentagon on the D&M? See if it fits..... </font><br /><br />Here you go Max. Had to use ImageReady, but I figured out how to do it. Lined it up with the obvious "wing" at 10:00. <br /><br /><i>Edit:</i> I just looked at it again. I think I can do a little better on the positioning. I tried not to change the aspect ratio when I sized it...it looks like it needs to be rotated a bit. Let me know. We can work on this one like Colin and I worked on the squashed chicken. I may not have time to do it today...I leave for the hospital in a little more than an hour.<br /><br /><i>Edit of the edit:</i> Also, when I have more time, I can roughly check the angles Torun provided to make sure the aspect ratio didn't change. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Nice, Telf! Good work!<br /><br />It looks to me like it needs to slide over to the left just a bit though, don't you agree? I can see the butress more clearly w/ your overlay.... I'm in a rush now... I'll highlight what I see if necessary later...<br /><br />Can you do the same thing w/ the color/ir image, please?

 

[telfrow]

I'll try Max...may be a while though. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">It looks to me like it needs to slide over to the left just a bit though...</font><br /><br />Uh, anchor points would have helped, Max. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>