A long pondered Star Trek Question

[bdewoody]

<font size="3">In all the series it has been mentioned that Earth has long since given up money and the greed associated with it.&nbsp; So how do they obtain the things they need as well as the things they want?&nbsp; Is everyone allowed to get their heart's desire regardless of job status?&nbsp; Even communist countries have a monetary system to distribute wealth according to social status and work performed.</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>

 

[PistolPete]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>In all the series it has been mentioned that Earth has long since given up money and the greed associated with it.&nbsp; So how do they obtain the things they need as well as the things they want?&nbsp; Is everyone allowed to get their heart's desire regardless of job status?&nbsp; Even communist countries have a monetary system to distribute wealth according to social status and work performed. <br /> Posted by bdewoody</DIV></p><p>To be honest, this was one of the few things that Roddenberry did with Star Trek that got on my nerves.&nbsp; It was a little too naive for my tastes for the very reasons that you mentioned.&nbsp; Completely removing money from the equation adds certain logistical complications that were never really addressed.&nbsp; To a certain extent people are just plain greedy, it's actually a survival instinct.&nbsp; People are going to want things and if you give one person more than another, somebody's going to get jealous.&nbsp; How do you weed the greed instinct out of people without removing people's natural competitive drive that makes them perform so well.&nbsp; To reference a completely and totally different sci-fi show, it's like in the movie <span style="font-style:italic">Serenity</span> where they find the planet Miranda.&nbsp; The Alliance weeded out everyone's aggressive drive and because of that everyone just laid down and died.&nbsp; To quote Mal: "Let me show you a world without sin."&nbsp; That's why the whole thing about no money just never rang true with me, it just didn't seem plausible.&nbsp; Hell, even the Soviet Union used currency to pay their workers (occasionally). </p><p>You'll notice, however, that after he died all of that happy kumbaya stuff went out the window and the whole show took on a much darker, more realistic, tone. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><em>So, again we are defeated. This victory belongs to the farmers, not us.</em></p><p><strong>-Kambei Shimada from the movie Seven Samurai</strong></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>To be honest, this was one of the few things that Roddenberry did with Star Trek that got on my nerves.&nbsp; It was a little too naive for my tastes for the very reasons that you mentioned.&nbsp; Completely removing money from the equation adds certain logistical complications that were never really addressed.&nbsp; To a certain extent people are just plain greedy, it's actually a survival instinct.&nbsp; People are going to want things and if you give one person more than another, somebody's going to get jealous.&nbsp; How do you weed the greed instinct out of people without removing people's natural competitive drive that makes them perform so well.&nbsp; To reference a completely and totally different sci-fi show, it's like in the movie Serenity where they find the planet Miranda.&nbsp; The Alliance weeded out everyone's aggressive drive and because of that everyone just laid down and died.&nbsp; To quote Mal: "Let me show you a world without sin."&nbsp; That's why the whole thing about no money just never rang true with me, it just didn't seem plausible.&nbsp; Hell, even the Soviet Union used currency to pay their workers (occasionally). You'll notice, however, that after he died all of that happy kumbaya stuff went out the window and the whole show took on a much darker, more realistic, tone.</p><p>Posted by PistolPete</DIV><br />I can somewhat understand a money-less system onboard ships and some fleet-only (minimal civilian presences - NOT DS9!!!).&nbsp; However, some entertainment aspects would have to be doled out carefully.&nbsp; You can't just walk up to a holodeck and expect it to be available.&nbsp; Even on our ships, sailors pay for supplies.&nbsp; Most have an on-board shop for that reason. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[crazyeddie]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>In all the series it has been mentioned that Earth has long since given up money and the greed associated with it.&nbsp; So how do they obtain the things they need as well as the things they want?&nbsp; Is everyone allowed to get their heart's desire regardless of job status?&nbsp; Even communist countries have a monetary system to distribute wealth according to social status and work performed. <br /> Posted by bdewoody</DIV></p><p>This question has always bothered me as well. &nbsp;One would have to assume that in the <span style="font-style:italic" class="Apple-style-span">Star Trek</span> universe, energy is so cheap and abundant that for all practical purposes it's free, and since replicator technology can produce any food or material goods that a person desires, the acquisition of wealth becomes pointless. &nbsp;Of course, some things cannot be replicated, such as ancient artifacts or raw materials needed to produce the cheap energy that makes this system possible, so I don't see how money can be eliminated entirely.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[aretis]

<p><font size="3">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yeah,&nbsp;I agree with all of you. I don't watch DS9 too much, but I always just figured they were refering to life on a Starship. Places like DS9, or anywhere else in the Federation, I just kind of pretend that they aren't really talking about that.</font></p><p><font size="3">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It's always kind of amazed me that the holodecks on Voyager always seem to be available. Not very realistic in a situation like that.</font></p><p><font size="3">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </font></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="4" color="#0000ff"><strong>Aretis</strong></font></p> </div>

 

[PistolPete]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I can somewhat understand a money-less system onboard ships and some fleet-only (minimal civilian presences - NOT DS9!!!).&nbsp; However, some entertainment aspects would have to be doled out carefully.&nbsp; You can't just walk up to a holodeck and expect it to be available.&nbsp; Even on our ships, sailors pay for supplies.&nbsp; Most have an on-board shop for that reason. <br /> Posted by willpittenger</DIV></p><p>These days most people have their paychecks automatically deposited into their accounts.&nbsp; With a debit card (or a smart card) it is entirely possible to have a paperless society - at least when it comes to money.&nbsp; Oh, and believe me, there are plenty of things you can buy on a ship today, not to mention port-calls. (Orion slave girls aren't free, after all <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" />)</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><em>So, again we are defeated. This victory belongs to the farmers, not us.</em></p><p><strong>-Kambei Shimada from the movie Seven Samurai</strong></p> </div>

 

[bearack]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>In all the series it has been mentioned that Earth has long since given up money and the greed associated with it.&nbsp; So how do they obtain the things they need as well as the things they want?&nbsp; Is everyone allowed to get their heart's desire regardless of job status?&nbsp; Even communist countries have a monetary system to distribute wealth according to social status and work performed. <br />Posted by bdewoody</DIV><br /><br />Well, they really didn't go without money, it just went by another name.&nbsp; It was called Federation credits but it's extremely vague how its received and used.&nbsp; Some information from Star Trek Wiki.</p><p><strong><strong>Money</strong> is a medium of exchange used to facilitate transactions of goods or services. </strong></p><p>Money in the <font color="#002bb8">21st century</font> sense is not used on <font color="#002bb8">24th century</font> <font color="#002bb8">Earth</font>. The exact nature of the <font color="#002bb8">Federation</font> economy is difficult to describe; while money has not entirely ceased to exist, it does not play the central role in the lives of Federation and Earth citizens that it once did. It appears that the Federation economy is built on a model that is decidedly non-capitalist, but rather akin to a socialist or communist model, however precise information is very scarce. The descriptions given by various Federation citizens are as follows: </p><ul><li><font color="#002bb8">Kirk</font> told <font color="#002bb8">Spock</font> about <font color="#002bb8">20th century</font> Earth: "<em>They're still using money. We need to get some.</em>" Later on, while Kirk was having dinner with <font color="#002bb8">Gillian Taylor</font> and was unable to pay in the restaurant, Gillian asked sarcastically, "<em>Don't tell me they don't use money in the <font color="#002bb8">23rd century</font>,</em>" and Kirk told her "<em>Well, we don't.</em>" (<em><span style="cursor:help"><font color="#002bb8">Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home</font></span></em>) </li></ul><ul><li><font color="#002bb8">Picard</font> tries to explain to <font color="#002bb8">Ralph Offenhouse</font> from the 20th century that there would be no need for his law firm any longer: "<em>A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of 'things'. We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions.</em>" (<span style="cursor:help"><font color="#002bb8">TNG</font></span>: "<span style="cursor:help"><font color="#002bb8">The Neutral Zone</font></span>") </li></ul> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><br /><img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Orion slave girls aren't free, after all </p><p>Posted by PistolPete</DIV><br />Yeah, and you pay twice for them.&nbsp; First, you pay with your money (probably latinum).&nbsp; Second, you pay with yourself.&nbsp; Remember those pheremones. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Well, they really didn't go without money, it just went by another name.&nbsp; It was called Federation credits but it's extremely vague how its received and used.&nbsp; Some information from Star Trek Wiki.Money is a medium of exchange used to facilitate transactions of goods or services. Money in the 21st century sense is not used on 24th century Earth. The exact nature of the Federation economy is difficult to describe; while money has not entirely ceased to exist, it does not play the central role in the lives of Federation and Earth citizens that it once did. It appears that the Federation economy is built on a model that is decidedly non-capitalist, but rather akin to a socialist or communist model, however precise information is very scarce. The descriptions given by various Federation citizens are as follows: Kirk told Spock about 20th century Earth: "They're still using money. We need to get some." Later on, while Kirk was having dinner with Gillian Taylor and was unable to pay in the restaurant, Gillian asked sarcastically, "Don't tell me they don't use money in the 23rd century," and Kirk told her "Well, we don't." (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home) Picard tries to explain to Ralph Offenhouse from the 20th century that there would be no need for his law firm any longer: "A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of 'things'. We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions." (TNG: "The Neutral Zone") <br /> Posted by bearack</DIV></p><p>I doubt we will ever get rid of lawyers.&nbsp; They will be like cockroaches.&nbsp; All you would need is a dispute of some sort. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[jmilsom]

<p>I believe there have been a number of papers written on the politics and economy of Star Trek. Here is a link to some guy's blurb on Star Trek Socialism:</p><p>http://www.myleftwing.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=354</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[yevaud]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I doubt we will ever get rid of lawyers.&nbsp; They will be like cockroaches.&nbsp; All you would need is a dispute of some sort.</p><p> <br /> Posted by <em>willpittenger</em></DIV></p><p>Ironic.&nbsp; As a part of my new promotion, I was in Housing Court all morning.&nbsp; *EEK* </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[Carrickagh]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I doubt we will ever get rid of lawyers.&nbsp; They will be like cockroaches.&nbsp; All you would need is a dispute of some sort. <br />Posted by willpittenger</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;Lawyers, in the great career checkerboard, stand diametrically opposite to problem-solvers.</p><p>&nbsp;Also, when more than one gather, as in the case of a flock of birds or a pod of whales, I suppose it would be safe to call it an excess of lawyers. </p><p>&nbsp;--Jack<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

If you take on faith that humanity somehow devises a method for faster than light-speed travel, I suppose you could do the same for the devising of a moneyless civilisation. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Carrickagh]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>In all the series it has been mentioned that Earth has long since given up money and the greed associated with it.&nbsp; So how do they obtain the things they need as well as the things they want?&nbsp; Is everyone allowed to get their heart's desire regardless of job status?&nbsp; Even communist countries have a monetary system to distribute wealth according to social status and work performed. <br />Posted by bdewoody</DIV><br /><br />I always liked this quote from STFC, where Lily is marvelling at all the hardware and asks how much the Enterprise costs:</p><p>Picard:"The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves, and the rest of humanity. "</p><p>Not a bad future to aim for.</p><p>&nbsp;They also seemed to use credits in TOS. I disticntly remeber Cyrano Jones selling tribbles for 10 credits. And in the episode "Catspaw" Engineer Desalle is trying to figure out a forcefield and says something like "I'll bet you credits to navy beans we can punch a hole in it."</p><p>&nbsp;So they have some sort of currency, despite the federation being a humanist-socialist civilization. </p><p>&nbsp;--Jack</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[yevaud]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>So they have some sort of currency, despite the federation being a humanist-socialist civilization. &nbsp;--Jack </p><p> Posted by <em>Carrickagh</em></DIV></p><p>I had previously read that the moneyless society is pretty well restricted to only parts of the Federation.&nbsp; As well, they have to relate, trade with, and deal with, other species that do in fact use currency.&nbsp; So it's a sort of financial dual system.&nbsp; If you were fortunate enough to be born on Earth or the more developed planets of the Federation, you do not require money; out in the hinterlands, or dealing with other species, you indeed do. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[Carrickagh]

That actually explains a good deal. And not unlike how some historic empires have had to function where spheres of influence over-lapped.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[yevaud]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>That actually explains a good deal. And not unlike how some historic empires have had to function where spheres of influence over-lapped. <br /> </p><p>Posted by <em>Carrickagh</em></DIV></p><p>Yeah.&nbsp; The various descriptions I'd read seem to imply a sort of "ration card" system, where your basic needs are handled by the State (e.g. Federation): your health, housing, basic food, clothing, etc.&nbsp; If you wish, you may then also supplement that with performing some sort of useful jobs for the System, which increases the "points" you receive. </p><p>I'd also suspect the descriptions I'd read were a bit superficial.&nbsp; For example, if you were a member of a relatively new colony, I'd suspect you'd receive a sort of basic ration from the colonial authorities, but then supplement that via your own efforts. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[Carrickagh]

<p>Which brings to mind several characters who were quite the free-wheeling capitalists, including Harry Mudd, Cyrano Jones, the miners in The Devil in the Dark, and in TNG one Mr. Okona. Its nice to think the 2 systems could complement one another. Perhaps a society can meet "basic" needs at the level of what I, anyway, perceive as a certain wealthy comfort, if that society is super-prosperous or working within an environment of super-abundance (ie the Cosmos). </p><p>Perhaps ultimately the Federation would evolve into something akin to Iain Banks's "The Culture." </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[dragon04]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Which brings to mind several characters who were quite the free-wheeling capitalists, including Harry Mudd, Cyrano Jones, the miners in The Devil in the Dark, and in TNG one Mr. Okona. Its nice to think the 2 systems could complement one another. Perhaps a society can meet "basic" needs at the level of what I, anyway, perceive as a certain wealthy comfort, if that society is super-prosperous or working within an environment of super-abundance (ie the Cosmos). Perhaps ultimately the Federation would evolve into something akin to Iain Banks's "The Culture." <br /> Posted by Carrickagh</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Not to mention the Ferengi.&nbsp; </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;Not to mention the Ferengi.</p><p>Posted by dragon04</DIV><br />There are details involved here.&nbsp; In one of the books, it turns out the Federation made a deal with the Ferengi that made any contract involving a Ferengi subject to their laws &mdash; even if signed here on Earth.&nbsp; To me, that is the only way that the Ferengi are relavent here.&nbsp; The topic was about the Federation economy (or lack thereof).&nbsp; Ferengi, except as noted above, are outside the Federation. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[Arion]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This question has always bothered me as well. &nbsp;One would have to assume that in the Star Trek universe, energy is so cheap and abundant that for all practical purposes it's free, and since replicator technology can produce any food or material goods that a person desires, the acquisition of wealth becomes pointless. &nbsp;Of course, some things cannot be replicated, such as ancient artifacts or raw materials needed to produce the cheap energy that makes this system possible, so I don't see how money can be eliminated entirely. <br />Posted by crazyeddie</DIV><br /><br />When I was a kid I never paid much attention to it. Now I do. And I say no human society could exist without money. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

The more I think about it, the less I like the concept of a society with all my needs met.&nbsp; Sure, as a customer, it would be nice not to have to pay for everything.&nbsp; But that leaves the landlord with little incentive to improve anything.&nbsp; Would farmers actually care about what they do?&nbsp; I doubt it.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[TheOscarMP]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The more I think about it, the less I like the concept of a society with all my needs met.&nbsp; Sure, as a customer, it would be nice not to have to pay for everything.&nbsp; But that leaves the landlord with little incentive to improve anything.&nbsp; Would farmers actually care about what they do?&nbsp; I doubt it. <br />Posted by willpittenger</DIV></p><p>which is the major disadvantage of communism/socialism.&nbsp; it breeds mediocrity</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff00ff">Screw you guys...I'm going home:  Eric Cartman</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>SILENCE...I KILL YOU!!!!:</strong>  Achmed, the dead terrorist</font></p> </div>

 

[bdewoody]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The more I think about it, the less I like the concept of a society with all my needs met.&nbsp; Sure, as a customer, it would be nice not to have to pay for everything.&nbsp; But that leaves the landlord with little incentive to improve anything.&nbsp; Would farmers actually care about what they do?&nbsp; I doubt it. <br />Posted by willpittenger</DIV><br /><br /><font size="2">This was kind of my original point.&nbsp; The Federation must dispense "credits" with consideration to the job being done or else a yeoman would recieve the same compensation as a Captain or a janitor would live the same life as a top scientist or doctor.&nbsp; I think we all need incentives to produce our best work.</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>

 

[kscarlett]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>In all the series it has been mentioned that Earth has long since given up money and the greed associated with it.&nbsp; So how do they obtain the things they need as well as the things they want?&nbsp; Is everyone allowed to get their heart's desire regardless of job status?&nbsp; Even communist countries have a monetary system to distribute wealth according to social status and work performed. <br /> Posted by bdewoody</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;<font color="#ff99cc"><font size="3">The separation from the desire of money and greed associated with it is meant to be replaced by the desire to gain knowledge and better humanity as a whole. Although it isn't made very clear, I think Earth has more of a give and take economy in Star Trek. Instead of "I'll do something for you if you pay me", it's more like "I'll do this for you because you'll do that for me." All this, of course, with the goal of exploring the cosmos in mind.</font></font></p><p><font color="#ff99cc"><font size="3">I've always thought if everyone could think the same way, things would just work. If everyone understood what's really important in life and had common goals, there would be no need for war and no one would struggle. I believe in Star Trek, the general population has overcome their differences and has placed a common goal in mind. With this, there is no need for money. Again, things just work.</font></font> <font size="3"><font color="#ff99cc">Of course there are social hierarchies in Star Trek. However, they are based on rank in a chain of command, which is always earned through hard work and experience.</font></font> </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffcc00"><font size="4">PCE. </font></font> </div>