A Long Running Contradiction About Black Holes.

[Michael Varn]

For decades, and as far back as I can remember the popular short version concept of a black hole is that it's gravity is so powerfull that nothing can escape it, not even light.

Now in recent years, I have learned alot more about black holes, and there appears to be a contradiction to this long running narrative about them:

If nothing can escape a black hole, then how do you account for all of that stuff that appears not only to have originated from a black hole, but is jetting away from it?

I thought everything was subject to the pull of gravity including all forms of matter and energy.

 

[billslugg]

The phenomena you describe occur outside the event horizon, where it is possible to escape. In this zone, the gases are ionized and revolve around the BH in an accretion disc. Being ionized, the gas is conductive. Because it is moving in equatorial orbit around the BH, and within a magnetic field, it will generate electricity through dynamo action, which will create a dipolar magnetic field. The gas is highly compressed and wants to escape but cannot because charged particles cannot cross magnetic field lines without giving up energy. The only escape is at the poles where the field lines are parallel, thus creating jets.

 

[Daveyo]

For decades, and as far back as I can remember the popular short version concept of a black hole is that it's gravity is so powerfull that nothing can escape it, not even light.

Now in recent years, I have learned alot more about black holes, and there appears to be a contradiction to this long running narrative about them:

If nothing can escape a black hole, then how do you account for all of that stuff that appears not only to have originated from a black hole, but is jetting away from it?

I thought everything was subject to the pull of gravity including all forms of matter and energy.

The experts don't know. but don't let on

 

[Michael Varn]

For decades, and as far back as I can remember the popular short version concept of a black hole is that it's gravity is so powerfull that nothing can escape it, not even light.

Now in recent years, I have learned alot more about black holes, and there appears to be a contradiction to this long running narrative about them:

If nothing can escape a black hole, then how do you account for all of that stuff that appears not only to have originated from a black hole, but is jetting away from it?

I thought everything was subject to the pull of gravity including all forms of matter and energy.

A friend who has taken classes in astronomy and physics in college told me that these jets are what are referred to as Hawkin radiation, named for Stephen Hawkin.

These images of jets moving away from black holes are animations that you see on shows like, "How The Universe Works", right?

I don't know if these jets have ever been detected optically or any other way with a telescope.

But you are right, these animations look like these jets are originating from inside the black hole, but your explanation of how these jets originate from beyond the event horizon clears up the contradiction.

The phenomena you describe occur outside the event horizon, where it is possible to escape. In this zone, the gases are ionized and revolve around the BH in an accretion disc. Being ionized, the gas is conductive. Because it is moving in equatorial orbit around the BH, and within a magnetic field, it will generate electricity through dynamo action, which will create a dipolar magnetic field. The gas is highly compressed and wants to escape but cannot because charged particles cannot cross magnetic field lines without giving up energy. The only escape is at the poles where the field lines are parallel, thus creating jets.

I guess the next question I can ask you is there any form of matter, with or without mass, or any form of energy or radiation that is immune from the force of gravity?

 

[billslugg]

Nothing is immune from the force of gravity since gravity is not a "force" that does pushing or pulling. Gravity is simply the shape of space. Mass bends space and everything follows the bending. It is like items floating down a curved river. Everything goes with the flow.

 

[Michael Varn]

Nothing is immune from the force of gravity since gravity is not a "force" that does pushing or pulling. Gravity is simply the shape of space. Mass bends space and everything follows the bending. It is like items floating down a curved river. Everything goes with the flow.

Interesting, you are the first person I have ever spoken to, or anyone else, that did not refer to gravity as some kind of force.

 

[billslugg]

The "force" of gravity is a mathematical construct to let us map the distribution of mass and thus determine the motions of mass nearby.

It is similar to how we use magnetic field lines to map the distribution of charge. There are no actual "lines" out there, they are simply a mathematical construct to help us determine how charges will move.

This is why "magnetic field lines can never cross". If they did then, at that point, the test particle would have a choice of which path to take. Such a point would be "indeterminate". Can't have that.

 

[Helio]

Bill, any idea what the mag lines look like in sunspot groups? Do they work together to align into one large field or do their field lines cross?

 

[billslugg]

Sunspots generally occur in pairs, one with north pointing up, the other with north pointing down. It creates a torus. A flow of charges along the central axis of the torus can account for the shape of such a field.

Picture a short river of electrons flowing along the surface of the Sun. By the Right Hand Rule the magnetic field lines off to its right point downward and off to the left they rise upward.

Field lines cannot cross, by definition. They are merely a construct telling us which way a charged particle will move. If they could cross, then at a point in space the magnetic field vector would point in two directions at the same time. Can't have that. If two charges are competing to define the direction of the field at a spot in space, the value averages the two. Never does it assume two values.

What happens on the Sun is that local groups of charge are forced to go where they don't want to go by thermal convection. It creates extremely jumbled knots of field lines. Eventually the lid pops off the pressure cooker and the blobs of charged gases move to their desire, releasing huge amounts of energy. Eventually everything untangles and becomes quiet. Never during that time did one field line cross another.

 

[Michael Varn]

The "force" of gravity is a mathematical construct to let us map the distribution of mass and thus determine the motions of mass nearby.

It is similar to how we use magnetic field lines to map the distribution of charge. There are no actual "lines" out there, they are simply a mathematical construct to help us determine how charges will move.

This is why "magnetic field lines can never cross". If they did then, at that point, the test particle would have a choice of which path to take. Such a point would be "indeterminate". Can't have that.

I have an idea for the managers and moderators of these forums and message boards:

Since there is wide range of users on these forums, from laypeople like me all the way to PhD's, perhaps these credentials can be displayed as part of the user's avatar.

Layman,Bachelor's, Masters, and PhD e.t.c.

I am fairly certain that users who have reacted and replied to my questions and comments have to have academic credentials in the feild of astronomy and physics.

The extent of my education in this feild is astronomy 101, that I took as an elective in college.