Alien mothership lurking in our solar system could be watching us with tiny probes, Pentagon official suggests

[Admin]

A draft paper by a Harvard scientist and the head of the Pentagon's UFO office has raised the idea an alien mothership could be in the solar system, sending out tiny probes dubbed "dandelion seeds" to explore the planets within.

Alien mothership lurking in our solar system could be watching us with tiny probes, Pentagon official suggests : Read more

 

[Dave]

Are we alone? We can all agree that rational and logical thought is what is needed to properly answer this question.
A few thousand years ago Europeans did not come to the Americas. They did not come here because of the vast distances at the time. We all know how that turned out.
Humanity has proven time and again that we overcome challenges when we set our minds to a problem. It is possible that star travel in our future will be a normal occurrence.

What we need from our military is for them to open up the books. Declassified documents will go a long way in understanding how we are being observed. Mainstream scientists now more than ever need to study the UFO or UAP phenomenon. Information needs to be made available.

 

[COLGeek]

Lot of shoulda, coulda, woulda speculation and hypothesizing here. Great sci-fi material, but little else.

Next.

 

[Dave]

There will always be skepticism or a strong bias against the belief 'we are not alone' as long as information remains hidden. All of our information in the form of facts about UFO's or UAP's comes from the military. Freedom of information is the right of a citizen living in a free society. Release the information. Let us be the judge.

We are not the center of the universe, though there are those who would have you believe that.

 

[COLGeek]

There will always be skepticism or a strong bias against the belief 'we are not alone' as long as information remains hidden. All of our information in the form of facts about UFO's or UAP's comes from the military. Freedom of information is the right of a citizen living in a free society. Release the information. Let us be the judge.

We are not the center of the universe, though there are those who would have you believe that.

True on the center of the universe thing. No argument there.

You assume there is actual information to share. What if there simply isn't any? What if there is nothing to be hidden?

There are no doubt things that have been seen that defies explanation, at the time of the incident. But that doesn't mean it is anything other than that.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

It seems to me that the main thrust of this article is that if there was an alien space ship somewhere in our solar system, it is not likely that we would detect it . So, there would not be any info about it being kept from us by the military.

And the suggested "dandelion seed" probes that somehow have a large surface to mass ratio to enable them to survive transit of Earth's atmosphere woud have to be really tiny or I would think that the efforts to track space junk would notice them.

Giving them the capabilies necessary to explain some of the so-far-unexplained observations does not seem compatible with scientific probes intended only to explore a planet, rather than eaves drop on a planet's civilization without its knowledge. So, why wouldn't such "dandelion seeds" get picked up by civilians and become the subjects of U-tube posts? Why would they be known only to the military and the info about them all be kept classified?

 

[Robert Lucien Howe]

While the idea of interstellar probes visiting us is intriguing given current 'known physics' and predicted & known statistics about the universe the possibility of it being true is virtually zero. Given the size of space and the time window for meeting humanity it is somewhere less than one in one million trillion..

Now if we were talking about a civilization with abilities outside of current known physics things change. - With FTL travel capability the chance of a visitor might drop to one maybe tens or hundreds of millions.. Still not close enough to be anywhere near likely to happen.

If we extend those abilities to a civilization that could detect an FTL signal across space then maybe they might just just be able to detect us. Though the physics of this is very unlikely the FTL space is an area we simply do not know yet - we cant even prove or disprove whether such a space even exists. Since human science doesn't understand FTL physics we could have sent a signal accidentally through some arbitrary experiment or technology..

This would reduce the probability of a visit to somewhere near parity. (all built on a very tall tower of imponderable improbabilities..) However such an event would not look anything like Oumuamua which looks like a far more 'ordinary' slow STL interstellar visitor.. Sorry no little (frozen) green men here.

 

[ZombiesAteHim]

I wanted to clarify to anyone who reads this as Loeb suggesting that there is a literal mothership in our solar system that he is merely making the claim that the scenario is in the realm of logical possibility. Unicorns are logically possible, but we happen to occupy a universe where they do not exist. Also, the gas argument for Oumuamua is as unlikely as an alien spacecraft, b/c Omuamua has distinct properties that are not common with other comets that instantiate offgassing; therefore making offgassing similarly unlikely. Loeb is trying to persuade astronomers to not rule out one category of possible explanations in favor of another, b/c of a fear that they may be ridiculed (the popularity of a hypothesis is irrelevant in regard to its truth value).

 

[ZombiesAteHim]

Lot of shoulda, coulda, woulda speculation and hypothesizing here. Great sci-fi material, but little else.

Next.

Are you referring to Loeb's true conclusion that the "dandelion" probe scenario is logically possible (the least stringent ontological category), and scientifically possible, or are you referring to the comments in the forum? The former is true, because lots of things are logically possible that fail to obtain in the actual universe, and the latter are largely fallacious appeals to ignorance.

 

[BOBBY-DIGITAL]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if an advance civilisation has the ability to roam around in space their technology far exceeds this guys imagination. To think that they'd do things like humans like send probes crashing into a planet is ignorant and shows how limited our knowledge of the universe and technology is. If a "mother ship" is roaming solar system then they have technology that we can not comprehend, develop or imagine so this to me seems like a child's attempt at story time.

 

[Dave]

One aspect of this conversation deals with the future of humanity. Let us be optimistic for a moment (why wouldn't we be) What will humans be doing 1000 years from now or 10,000 years from now. Being both a curious race and explorers we will be roaming around our galaxy searching for life. Let's face it we are doing it now in our own star system. What makes anyone think we would change? Two scenarios will happen at that point. We will discover life that is less advanced than we are and life that is more advanced. With less advanced life, the responsibility of contact lies with us. Primitive races would not act as one as a species they we would be warlike still separated into tribes. After careful planning we decide on observation, not giving this world knowledge of our presence. Now the question is what will a more advanced form of life do?

 

[Cyclops]

Have you looked at our solar system and wondered why we are the one planet that can support life and why we have the big asteroid belt surrounding us.
To my mind our earth is a prison whose sentient beings were once great space travellers and destroyers of other races and planets you only have to look at all the atrocities we humans have committed against each other. We were put on this Earth and had our memories wiped and then had to start living primitively again with what our jailers gave us.

The moon according to some is hollow and this could be the jailers observation post with large disguised antennae sending signals to the human brain to block memories of the past but the human brain always developed and is becoming immune to the prohibitive signals.

Every now and again our jailers come down to earth in their space craft to abduct humans and check how far we are developing and also wish to prevent us from leaving Earth to destroy more Universes The USA was warned off on the moon and also was there not a science fiction story about a woman being able to contact a captive alien from the Rose well using telepathy to say that we humans on earth were the spirits of those who had fought galactic wars and both sides spirits had become captive here.

You may all laugh at this theory but look through history where places of great learning with vast libraries all over the world have suddenly burnt down because the academics were getting to close to finding the answers.
Look at the unfortunate disasters with manned space craft and also the break down in communications of observation craft and drones sent to other planets the Aliens could easily be jamming and tapping into the signal being transmitted back to Earth and showing us something entirely different to what is actually there provided .

 

[Dave]

It is important to base any theories we may have on facts. Let's try to keep paranoia and conspiracy theories at a minimum.
A 'dandelion' probe actually existing is a very real scenario. The people who do not want to consider it simply do not want the concept to be genuine. And for good reason, it forces us to look in the mirror. It forces humans to look at ourselves. What a more intelligent lifeform observes is disgusting. A race that destroys its natural world through climate change. A race that has warring tribes since it first walked. The disparity between the 'haves' and 'have nots' of the world is pathetic. And yet, always there is hope.
We can change. The human race can come together as one. We can learn to integrate ideologies. More fair and equitable distribution of wealth. Use more renewable resources. We can learn to be better as the human race.

 

[Mergatroid]

The guy seems a few bricks short of a full load.

 

[Mergatroid]

"The people who do not want to consider it simply do not want the concept to be genuine. "

So, all the people who are critical of this called you up and stated they don't want the concept to be genuine?
LOL that's pretty funny that you think you can speak for those people. It would great to see something like that, but as Matt says on PBS, "It's never aliens".
Unless you can prove a way to get from another planet to our planet in less than a few thousand years, it's highly doubtful there are any aliens around here.

Wow, I can't believe all the kooks these stories bring out. On guy thinks our solar system is a prison....lol....

 

[Pogo]

I remember living through most of Project Blue Book, and read several of the books touting the alien story. There were many photos most of which were obvious fakes or so dim and fuzzy they could be pert’near anything.
History repeats itself.
Every recent picture and video clip I’ve seen, the object is completely unrecognizable. Fuzzy clips are not evidence of aliens, just evidence that we don’t know what it is.
It would really be helpful if the investigators would publicize each case accompanied with what they know and what it is, and how that was arrived at, perhaps posted on some website, much like the NTSB posting results of accident investigations.

 

[Dave]

Imagine a conversation 500 years ago. Two men are looking up at the moon. One says to the other "One day men will walk there. We will send ships to every planet in our solar system." "Impossible" says the other man. "You are talking craziness. Nothing could possibly go that far or that fast. Nothing could be farther from the truth."

We live in a galaxy that is both a habitat for life and intelligent life. Half of all the intelligent life will be more advanced. Life is the dominant force on a world with liquid water. We learn more every day. Earth's twin should be found within our lifetime. We are genuine. Why shouldn't others be as well.

 

[Dave]

H.G. Wells wrote the brilliant novel, The Invisible Man years ago. As a sci fi writer he accomplished what few could do. He accurately predicted the future. In his novel the main character became abusive because he was invisible. It is very much like todays internet.
We all have a viewpoint. I ask that we all respect each others opinions and please lets not resort to 'name calling' or 'trash talking.' We all share a passion for astronomy here. Let's all show respect and enjoy the conversation.

 

[Think twice]

A draft paper by a Harvard scientist and the head of the Pentagon's UFO office has raised the idea an alien mothership could be in the solar system, sending out tiny probes dubbed "dandelion seeds" to explore the planets within.

Alien mothership lurking in our solar system could be watching us with tiny probes, Pentagon official suggests : Read more

I think if there were alien craft exploring the stars Oumuamua would be my preferred choice. If you want to travel from star to star how would you protect your spaceship from dust, gas and occasional small rocks zipping about? Encase it inside a rocky asteroid. How would you get artificial gravity? Shape the asteroid into a cigar shape and spin it on a central axis. The outer ends of the cigar would have artificial gravity. How would you change speed, as Oumuamua apparently did. On this subject of orbital mechanics I’m no expert but my guess would be that any engine or artificial energy source inside the crafts Rocky body would be at the central point and it shouldn’t be too hard I would have thought to spin the cigar shape at different speeds and angles to change trajectory and increase/decrease speed?
Having said that I wouldn’t have thought any alien would want to be on any interstellar craft given the long time scales Of journeys. But a complex autonomous factory craft manned by sophisticated robot entities would do the trick. And if so then this alien race could have been around millions of years, and have many many Oumuamua craft travelling around the galaxy.Acting as a futuristic wells Fargo delivery network of autonomous crafts. Picking samples up, dropping off various smaller craft etc.
Instantaneous communication is actually possible contrary to Albert Einsteins theories. ( MMX proves what relativity pretends is impossible) And thus although the aliens themselves couldn’t visit us in person, they would have virtual instantaneous survellance of earth via autonomous relay communication crafts parked discreetly in the solar system and deposited there by passing oumuamuas.
Given artificial gravity, power and even the possibilty of a protected air filled environment inside the cigar craft it’s possible to speculate that although maybe no aliens themselves would be there. But there could be robotic tended labs, horticulture and animal grow rooms, dna editing suites and various life forms in incubation etc etc. Pick up a few p
ants or animals from earth to be analysed and drop off a few new edited life forms. Earth would be like a large Petrie dish in a advanced civilisations cosmic lab.

 

[billslugg]

There is no reason to invoke aliens. Oumuamua anomalous acceleration is due to outgassing of H2 and O2 from the solid phase. Those gasses show no coma, are invisible. No water came out because there was none. It was a bone dry collection of rocks. The water inside was disassociated by cosmic rays over millions of years, sublimated to solid form, stored inside the rocks. Sudden heating by Sun caused outflows.

 

[Think twice]

There is no reason to invoke aliens. Oumuamua anomalous acceleration is due to outgassing of H2 and O2 from the solid phase. Those gasses show no coma, are invisible. No water came out because there was none. It was a bone dry collection of rocks. The water inside was disassociated by cosmic rays over millions of years, sublimated to solid form, stored inside the rocks. Sudden heating by Sun caused outflows.

Yes I’ve read 2 of your cited papers and have to say although eloquently presented they are essentially about as likely an explanation as an alien probe. In other words possible but not very likely. Notice their outgassing theories of H and O are based not on observation,..but on conjecture. What ‘If‘s‘ based on the assumption that a long line other ‘what ifs‘ are possible.
Lets take the outgassing possibilty. Even if their speculation of outgassing (without any precedence or evidence) is correct...how does outgassing from a spinning asteroid gIve a directional boost in velocity? Basic logic says that if there were outgassing, it would be omni directional at best. Ruling out any directional outgassing for the observed anomalous acceleration. One thing you have to keep in mind is...An alien probe would deliberately use the suns gravity to slingshot. As observed. But what are the chances an asteroid coming from another star system would just “happen” to be travelling at “just the right angle” to maximise solar slingshot effect?
Having said all that it’s also a possibilty it has something to do with the asteroid, alien or otherwise, getting a boost in acceleration via the Mercury anomoulous preccession possibilty. Notice the closer to the sun the planet, the bigger the boost in orbital speed is achieved.( Whether or not one prescribes to the theology of Relativity or the physics of Newton )Which is why the Mercury precession is the most obvious to observe. And Oumuamua definitely came pretty close to the sun.

Mod Edit - Political commentary removed

 

[Unclear Engineer]

Bill,
What is the experimental evidence for H2O exposed to radiation at ultra low temperatures dissassociating and recombining to only H2 and O2, with no water left? It seems like that is one of the conjectures that could be (maybe already has been) explored in a lab on Earth. So, do we have the actual info? If not, shouldn't we be getting it?

 

[billslugg]

....how does outgassing from a spinning asteroid gIve a directional boost in velocity?

what are the chances an asteroid coming from another star system would just “happen” to be travelling at “just the right angle” to maximise solar slingshot effect?

The outgassing is predominately on the side facingthe Sun, always forcing the object away from the Sun.

The object is not "travelling at 'just the right angle'to maximize solar slingshot". There is no gravity assist possible from the Sun as it is at rest with respect to the Solar System. See Wiki article on Gravity Assist under paragraph entitled "Limits". "Interplanetary slingshots using the Sun itself are not possible because the Sun is at rest relative to the Solar System as a whole." - Wiki

 

[billslugg]

Bill,
What is the experimental evidence for H2O exposed to radiation at ultra low temperatures dissassociating and recombining to only H2 and O2, with no water left?

The process of disassociation by Cosmic Rays is basic physics. How much water is left is simply due to how much water it started with and how long it was out there.

Questions about sources for assertions in a paper should be directed to the authors.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

Bill,
Dissassociation of atoms in molecules by radiation is only the first half of the process. The question is what is the equilibrium result of reassociation of the freed atoms into molecules of H2, O2 and H20. Presumably, that could have some ambient temperature effect.

But, considering that so many of the astronomical bodies that we see have large amounts of H20, even rubble pile asteroids, and those presumably formed in space and have been subjected to large amounts of cosmic rays. it seems pretty dubious that the interstellar environment could so completely convert all water into molecular hydrogen and molecular oxygen.

So, any paper that proposes that should at least be offering some evidence that is what happens. In this particular issue, that evidence could be (could already have been) developed in a lab here on Earth. So, before somebody publishes a paper claiming that effect, they should have included something supporting that claim. If not, then the paper should be questioned, not just believed because it was published.

As for "gravitational slingshotting" using the Sun: Yes, it is not something that would work for space craft originating from Earth to gain energy for reaching orbits farther from the Sun. However, it is not out of the question that space craft that originated from a different star system could use the difference in the velocities of the two stars to gain some energy to get farther from the center of the galaxy. But, more likely, the Sun could just be a conveient way to change course to go on to another star system. That is pretty much how we are doing tours of asteroids and Keiper Belt objects with our own spacecraft. We do fine tune trajectory adjustements to make the encounter with the latest target result in an "open orbit" around that target that results in a trajectory that points to the next target. Not a "slingshot" but more like an elastic collision. Kind of like a game of billiards, where the obect is to make the cue ball touch both of the other 2 balls on the table by making the cue ball change direction with first contact to go towards the location of the second ball. Presumably an advanced civilization could use that strategy to send a probe to look at more than one star.

I am not saying that is what Oumuamua is - just explaining the possibilities and the proper logic.