ANGRY AT NASA!

[Elbeau]

Angry at Nasa?
Good heavens, whatever for?

I like easy questions like this.

We had the Saturn V. It worked. It carried a LOT. It cost the same as 2 shuttle missions in retrospect.

We decided the Saturn V was too dangerous and expensive and we wanted new features...so:

We strapped an airplane-looking rocket to the side of two highly explosive solid rockets and a massive gas can. Since the gas can would build up ice that would be dangerous to our airplane-rocket since the airplane-rocket is BESIDE the gas can and the ice would hit it as it falls off...SO...we wrapped the gas can in foam that will fall off and blow up the airplane-rocket more subtly than the ice would have. We then strapped on some of the best rocket engines ever, but made sure our airplane-rocket was so heavy that no matter how much we want to, we won't be able to fly it out of low earth orbit. We achieved this weight-gaining objective by equipping our rocket-plane with all kinds of useless laboratory equipment that cannot be removed and must go up on any launch, no matter what the mission. We added all kinds of equipment and requirements for de-orbiting satellites (which we hardly ever actually did), and so forth. We were told that we could launch each shuttle hundreds of times and that it would only cost about $250,000 per launch.

...believe me, this is the SHORT list of shuttle stupidity....I WILL go on if you continue to argue this point...

Needless to say, after 40 years of LEO, $172,000,000,000.00 and a dozen or so dead astronauts, we have created a couple cool things in space...but seriously...compared to launching the 50-100 Saturn V's that we could have launched for the same price, do you really think we got our money's worth?

There's a reason that other countries are NOT copying our shuttle design...and it's not because they don't have the technology. It's because they don't want it.

 

[et42]

It makes me depressed and horrifically angry whenever I read the science fiction of NASA's "golden age". (Need I even mention how NASA's golden age was gone before we even really noticed it?) In fact, not only was the fiction optimistic, but the nonfiction was, as well. By now we were supposed to have cities in space, on the moon, maybe a colony on Mars... and we probably could have, to. We nearly had the stars, and we're turning our backs on them.

I once read a plan- in a book called "The Case for Mars"- that wouldn't even call for spending on the government's part, unless success was achieved. The plan involved turning over Mars- and other parts of space- to commercial interests, which would then recieve prize money and a contract upon completion of set goals by the government. This would have been the very LEAST that the government could do, and if the public truly wasn't interested, then no taxpayer dollars would have been wasted. Instead, nothing at all is being done, and nothing at all is being discovered. The culture seems to have turned inwards, and I'm not sure there's really anything we can do.

It depresses me to say this, but unless corporations start taking a serious interest in space, the US is out, at least for the time being. Perhaps the only way we're going to get to space is by capitalism, at least in this country.

Who wants to come with me to ESA? >.<

 

[netdragon]

No. I'm angry at congress for underfunding NASA and overfunding the military. It's tough to do anything with peanuts for funding.

Good thing Obama provided them some relief. However, I believe their funding should still be multiples higher.

$800 billion for a worthless stimulus package that will only amount to a handful of low paying jobs at the most. $1 Trillion for Socialized Medicine (which probably won't pass anyway--so that is good).

I don't know, but for $800 Billion, I would expect at least 1 million high paying jobs. Perhaps I just have higher expectations.

Not the place to discuss, in my opinion, but now I'll put my 2cents in. I would complain about military spending, decades of ignoring infrastructure, depleting our industrial capabilities, and a culture encouraging very costly suburban sprawl over the last 50 years - not that. Considering the U.S. has been ignoring infrastructure for so long, a lot of that money is just to rebuild bridges and other things that have been ignored. Most states have a backlog of highway projects. Georgia is using a lot of their stimulus package just to get on track for highway projects. Additionally, it's more likely to keep more people from losing jobs (especially in the construction industry) than creating more jobs. Finally, with the threat of deflation looming soon before the stimulus, the government spending is appropriate. My only complaint is there should have been more for commuter rail, considering that encourages dense development. Encouraging rapid dense development could more rapidly bring in tax money which would help keep our economy growing so we can pay back the foreign investors.

 

[MeteorWayne]

LOL, are you seriously suggesting hitching a ride with ESA to space for humans? They have managed exactly one launch of cargo, to the ISS, in LEO. That's it. The next ATV launch won't be until 2010. Again, a cargo launch.

Manned spacecraft for ESA is probably far further away than it is for SpaceX,

 

[bbfreakDude]

It makes me depressed and horrifically angry whenever I read the science fiction of NASA's "golden age". (Need I even mention how NASA's golden age was gone before we even really noticed it?) In fact, not only was the fiction optimistic, but the nonfiction was, as well. By now we were supposed to have cities in space, on the moon, maybe a colony on Mars... and we probably could have, to. We nearly had the stars, and we're turning our backs on them.

I once read a plan- in a book called "The Case for Mars"- that wouldn't even call for spending on the government's part, unless success was achieved. The plan involved turning over Mars- and other parts of space- to commercial interests, which would then recieve prize money and a contract upon completion of set goals by the government. This would have been the very LEAST that the government could do, and if the public truly wasn't interested, then no taxpayer dollars would have been wasted. Instead, nothing at all is being done, and nothing at all is being discovered. The culture seems to have turned inwards, and I'm not sure there's really anything we can do.

It depresses me to say this, but unless corporations start taking a serious interest in space, the US is out, at least for the time being. Perhaps the only way we're going to get to space is by capitalism, at least in this country.

Who wants to come with me to ESA? >.<

Eww, the ESA? Seriously. Do you even know what NASA does? Or what it has done? We got to the recent milestone of 500 people in space because of NASA mostly, as 300 plus of those 500 flew on US spacecraft. Science? NASA has put more space probes and scientific equipment to explore our solar system and universe than any other agency bar none.

The RKA? They haven't launched a successful spacecraft beyond LEO since before the fall of the Soviet Union. The ESA? Their commitment to space exploration is less than ours. JAXA? Two successful missions beyond LEO, that's it.

I am not angry at NASA, I think they've done an excellent job with what they've been given. Like I said before, NASA doesn't make policy, they just follow it and that is subject to change every four to eight years. With NASA's budget being usually less than 1 percent since the end of Apollo but sometimes just getting to 1 percent at best. Pathetic.

As for the idea that private companies should do all this, there is no profit in space exploration. None. Notta, zip. Manned missions? The private sector is not about to put the cart before the horse, they're going to focus on LEO and suborbital for the next 20 plus years first.

 

[bbfreakDude]

LOL, are you seriously suggesting hitching a ride with ESA to space for humans? They have managed exactly one launch of cargo, to the ISS, in LEO. That's it. The next ATV launch won't be until 2010. Again, a cargo launch.

Manned spacecraft for ESA is probably far further away than it is for SpaceX,

:lol: Agreed, the Chinese will probably step foot on the moon before the ESA ever launches a manned spacecraft on their own.

 

[clint_dreamer]

Brainwashed.
:lol:

Me or you? Palin 2012 too I supposed eh?

 

[JonHouston]

I am not angry at NASA, but rather, our politicians who have made really bad choices over the years. First, it was a terrible mistake to invest billions in developing the Apollo program, only to abandon that capability. There were never any cost savings associated with cancellation of Apollo.

Instead, NASA is driven by money special interests that keep the contract dollars flowing their way. As such, to the politicians, NASA is not about obtaining new discoveries and knowledge, but by keeping the right contractors happy, so that campaign cash and support flow their way.

The entire system is corrupt, starting at the very top and always has been. Until we, the American people, wake up and stop electing "leaders" that value money and power over what is right for this nation, then we will continue to get more of the same.

For the same budget NASA has had all these years, Apollo could have kept going with 2 to 3 missions a year to the Moon, and eventually, we could have gone to Mars with Apollo technology. The Saturn V was big enough to launch the components needed to go to Mars.

The key element in anything successful is consistency. When you have the technology that works, do not throw it away as we did with Apollo, but instead, keep it, use it, refine it, and evolve it.

Our nation was foolish for throwing away Apollo. The name of Neil Armstrong will be remembered 5,000 years from now, but President Nixon and Congressional members who decided to throw Apollo away will have long been forgotten, and in my view, for good reason.

 

[jstepp590]

I am too. We are farting around looking at stuff instead of commercializing space. We need to solve the high cost to orbit price first, possibly through a maglev launch system for spaceplanes to break their inertia. Once space is profitable none of our current problems are going to matter.

"A small .5 kilometer (metallic) asteroid is worth 20 trillion dollars in the platinum group metal marketplace”.
Peter H. Diamandis
XPrize Foundation

 

[pmf0671]

Surprisingly, I haven't heard anyone mention DIRECT.

The fact that NASA EMPLOYEES that designed the Ares vehicles, also designed DIRECT, says enough. They disagree with NASA. Ares has too many drawbacks that will potentially and ultimately doom the design.

I am so hoping Obama will decide to have DIRECT re-reviewed and made viable. It is such a damn flexible design, it can take humans anywhere from LEO to the moon and, with additions to the design, take humans to mars.

-edit- just disicovered DIRECT 3.0 will be reviewed by the augustine commission.. good news

 

[keonyn]

Still buying that line, are we?

I assume this isn't the place to discuss but...of course I believe that. And I'm not "buying a line." I firmly believe that with the evidence I have read. You can't spend money like there is no tomorrow and be responsible for this this generations Vietnam without screwing over the next guy in line to take over.

Brainwashed.
:lol:

Head in the sand.
:lol:

Sorry, you need only open your eyes to see the current economic climate. If you are incapable of doing so much as that, then you're hardly in a position to criticize or judge someone else. Bias and partisan garbage does no one any good, it just demonstrates how retarted the two party system is, and the people who let those parties and their propaganda think for them as well.

Besides, this isn't a discussion on your idiotic one-sided bias filled partisan politics that accomplishes absolutely nothing aside from polarizing the nation and ensuring nothing ever gets accomplished. This is about whether people are upset with NASA or not, so try to stay on the topic. I know some people just can't give up the chance to turn any discussion into their personal soapbox about any and every topic, but unfortunately that's not what this forum is for.

Anyways, I'm not upset at NASA. Honestly, the money just isn't there for them to do what they were told to do. Mars is not just a quick program away, that's a far heftier endeavour than the moon ever was. Bush seemed to think that throwing out a task like that like Kennedy did with no followup would make him famous too, but unfortunately the only way NASA could realistically achieve the goal with that budget would be to dismantle far too many other programs. It would have been an agency for bringing people to Mars and the Moon, but the science would have suffered as a result since so much else would have been cut to reach it.

Sorry, but it's the politicians that are to blame, and even the people who expect NASA to be able to do everything for nothing, and then "get angry" when reality sets in. This is the same kind of thinking that caused the housing crisis, all these people jumped out and bought these homes without considering the reality of what they were getting in to. What NASA needs is better direction and focus, as well as a stable budget that doesn't keep them guessing and spending money on programs they only have to cancel later because it turns out the budget wasn't there the next year for it.

Contrary to what certain politically bias people here would love to claim, this is not the fault of the Democrats or the Republicans individually, or Bush or Obama, but pretty much everyone in Washington. Frankly, the finger pointing from one party to the other gets old, particularly when they're all freaking guilty in the end. The budget problems present now aren't new, and budget problems existed under Bush, Clinton and the prior Bush. They've existed when congress had a Democrat majority, and a Republican majority. All Bush ever did was say he wanted to go to the Moon and Mars, but just saying "let's do it" doesn't mean a thing when he wasn't willing to back it. Now that we're in an economic slump that is one of the worst seen in decades, we really expect to pump money in to NASA like there's no end to it? While it may seem reasonable to us, there are many other sectors of our society that would consider that poor prioritization. One thing people need to consider is that NASA is still just a small part of a much greater whole, and this is a democracy, and many others outside of the space sector and its fans aren't going to be quite as willing to dump all the money towards NASA.

 

[XENOCIDE]

Nasa has went backwards to go forward. We could be on mars had we continued the path we were on. The Shuttle was not the best choice. A moon base would have served our needs better. the regolith is sim. to that on mars and would put the airlock systems and enviromental systems to the test. Just getting back to the moon is frustrating to say the least. This has all been said a hundred times, whty bother asking anymore.

 

[Imfamous]

No! I am angry at the governement for continuing to cut funding for NASA and thinking that bailouts and whatnot are the answer to everything. The universe is the key to everything in life, period. NASA is doing what they can with what they have, unfortunately the government doesn't get it. The only upside is that they have a couple billion years before our sun destroys earth and hopefully they will get it by then. Chances are, NASA won't exist and neither will any other type of space exploration program.

 

[SpaceOptimist]

I assume this isn't the place to discuss but...of course I believe that. And I'm not "buying a line." I firmly believe that with the evidence I have read. You can't spend money like there is no tomorrow and be responsible for this this generations Vietnam without screwing over the next guy in line to take over.

We're spending more now than we ever have before, dollar amounts that will dwarf what has been spent on Afghanistan and Iraq (neither of which are even remotely comparable to the Vietnam conflict) and if you let them get away with always blaming their predecessor, yes you are indeed buying a line.

Look I'm not gonna turn a NASA thread into a debate about the US economy. Just check when Obama came into power and you'll see that all the problems of today existed well before then. Ok? Good.

Unfortunately, you did. Did you see that there is a 5,000 to 1 chance of an impact? After reading that, you believe that there are more important places to spend money than basic research and infrastructure related to space. Are you sure you support space activities?

 

[SpaceOptimist]

I am not angry at NASA, but rather, our politicians who have made really bad choices over the years.

The job of a politician is to represent the constituency that elect the politician. Most people do not value space technology or achievements, so it is silly to be angry at the politician.

 

[SpaceOptimist]

I do not agree with many of you who believe we should be on Mars by now. It is difficult for any corporation or government to dogmatically pursue such an ambitious goal. I do agree that we should be farther along than we are now.

 

[critter39]

Yes, I'm very anoid at how NASA isn't getting the attention it needs to keep it space program going. If NASA could get just a quarter that the miltary get, just think where mankind could be. I can not say I am mad just very sad.

 

[clint_dreamer]

Unfortunately, you did. Did you see that there is a 5,000 to 1 chance of an impact? After reading that, you believe that there are more important places to spend money than basic research and infrastructure related to space. Are you sure you support space activities?

Impact? Uh ok.

Anyways I do support space activities. I support sending probes to other bodies in the Solar System. Ones that are rarely photographed or studied that we can learn from. I support space based telescopes that bring the rest of the Universe into view for us. But what I do not support is wasting money. The ISS and the shuttle program come to mind. Now Mars is the next hot topic threatening to burn billions more. Everyone is in such an uproar about getting off this planet that we are forgetting Earth is all we have. The money spent on a flag planting mission to Mars will be better off spent on studying and repairing this planet, which people seem to be forgetting is the only known one capable of sustaining human life. So while I do support NASA and space exploration I feel that their direction has wondered off course lately. The 40th anniversary of Apollo 11 was great but it started way too much talk on where we need to go next.

 

[spiknter]

I'm not angry at Nasa!!!!!!!

I'm angry our government can't understand the financial support Nasa continuously needs. When any group explores the dificulties of the unknown there are going to be setbacks...Nasa needs a big ficsal budget not to be cross-examined by the media as costly overruns. Saw Mike Griffen trying to explain their budget to the media on c-span......space technology is and always has been costly.

 

[SpaceForAReason]

It is kinda tough to be mad at the performance of an organization that is starving. They may not even have enough money to do what they want.

They have chosen their course of action because they belive they do not have the money or the time to do any better.

Many of their decisions are made for them from outside political influences. Don't be mad at NASA. Be mad at what has caused it to be that way.

 

[ti994a]

: Why in the world are we freakin developing the Ares1? Ares1 has nothing to do with taking people to the moon. Ares1 takes 5 astronauts into space at Low orbit (thats it!). Its Ares5 that takes the Ares1 capsule to the moon. SpaceX will have the the Falcon9/ dragon capsule which takes 7 astronauts into space? Plus, Falcon 9 will me much safer, more reliable, cost a fraction of the cost, available 4 years sooner, and made by private industry. Ares5 could just as easy take the Dragon capsule to the moon. Ares 1 relies on overly complex balancing thrusters to keep the pensil shape from braking up. Ares 1 uses dangerous solid rocket fuel that can't be turned off which requires an even more complex crew escape system. The Falcon 9 combines the best features of Soyuz and Apollo in a simple reliable vehicle.

 

[Ruri]

How angry I'm at the NASA leadership well I'm not very happy with their performance.
They have been constantly making excuses vs dropping a bad architecture and moving on.
They wasted billions designing a booster that is inferior to the Delta 4-H in every way esp in reoccurring costs and lifts 3,000kg less.
It has gotten so bad many of the engineers revolted and form the direct group on their own time in an effort to save VSE and NASA's reputation.
How bad things are with Ares I they deleted the WCS from the block I Orion to save mass have any idea how many other things got the ax before that?
This vid probably would accurately convey my feelings on the choices being made on constellation. :evil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mp9rhtudaE

 

[JimTheEng]

No, for once I'm not that angry at NASA because I'm glad they are returning humans to beyond low Earth orbit. Of course I would have liked to see much less spent on beefed up Mars pathfinders and more on missions like JIMO or TPF. Also, some of the proposed flights for the constellation program have been posted on Wikipedia and they just look like longer Apollo sorties with the crew more or less 'sleeping in their car' as I did once when visiting LA. I'd like to see our return to the moon have more of a focus on building a permanent settlement. The first Altair launched won't even be manned, it's just a Lunar flyby that will be crashed into the moon to calibrate sensors--really? Are we that unsure about the vehicle that we need to build an entire craft just to smash it into something.....if you don't want to break in Altair with humans at least use it for an unmanned soft landing on the Moon. It might come in handy later!

Otherwise I am content with NASA, the problem isn't so much the space program as it is the public who are too uninformed and too lazy to understand the moon landings weren't fake or that humanity's place is in space if it is to survive at all, and to get there we need to work at that goal NOW and not just hope 100 years from now the necessary technology will just appear *poof* in our laps ready for us to go to warp speed. I'm angry at Americans not America's space program!

 

[spiknter]

Does anyone know if Nasa has a private fund raiser!

 

[keonyn]

Hell, let's just dust off the old Saturn V and get rolling again. Heh, I'm kidding of course, but that thing was a dream machine. I sometimes wonder why we're working so hard to reinvent the wheel when we had the Saturn booster 40 years ago. You'd think they could start with that and build something new with that vehicle as the foundation.