ANGRY AT NASA!

[Ruri]

: Why in the world are we freakin developing the Ares1? Ares1 has nothing to do with taking people to the moon. Ares1 takes 5 astronauts into space at Low orbit (thats it!). Its Ares5 that takes the Ares1 capsule to the moon. SpaceX will have the the Falcon9/ dragon capsule which takes 7 astronauts into space? Plus, Falcon 9 will me much safer, more reliable, cost a fraction of the cost, available 4 years sooner, and made by private industry. Ares5 could just as easy take the Dragon capsule to the moon. Ares 1 relies on overly complex balancing thrusters to keep the pensil shape from braking up. Ares 1 uses dangerous solid rocket fuel that can't be turned off which requires an even more complex crew escape system. The Falcon 9 combines the best features of Soyuz and Apollo in a simple reliable vehicle.

The primary purpose of Ares I is to hide the true cost of Ares V.
It's secondary purpose welfare for ATK while Ares V is developed but Direct launcher also would serve this purpose.
Then you have people at NASA who can't stand the thought of using the ELLVs or any vehicles developed outside of NASA for crewed flights even though the unmanned side uses them all the time.
As for blackzones they closed them during the OSP program which is more then can be said for Ares I.
One worry I have with all these mass cuts to make Orion fly on Ares I plus the stupidly high max Q of the LV is it's going to kill a crew.
Then we have some people in management who think it would be safe to fly Ares I in rain or with a failed SRB joint.
Each little deletion from the airbags to the WCS added a little danger.

Another issues the money for Ares can be better spent on better propulsion for Mars missions keeping ISS flying and funding COTS-D.

 

[Bill_Wright]

I want you to get up, go to your window, open it and scream, "I'M AS MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!!"

agreed --
-- Bill

 

[Ruri]

No, for once I'm not that angry at NASA because I'm glad they are returning humans to beyond low Earth orbit. Of course I would have liked to see much less spent on beefed up Mars pathfinders and more on missions like JIMO or TPF. Also, some of the proposed flights for the constellation program have been posted on Wikipedia and they just look like longer Apollo sorties with the crew more or less 'sleeping in their car' as I did once when visiting LA. I'd like to see our return to the moon have more of a focus on building a permanent settlement. The first Altair launched won't even be manned, it's just a Lunar flyby that will be crashed into the moon to calibrate sensors--really? Are we that unsure about the vehicle that we need to build an entire craft just to smash it into something.....if you don't want to break in Altair with humans at least use it for an unmanned soft landing on the Moon. It might come in handy later!

Otherwise I am content with NASA, the problem isn't so much the space program as it is the public who are too uninformed and too lazy to understand the moon landings weren't fake or that humanity's place is in space if it is to survive at all, and to get there we need to work at that goal NOW and not just hope 100 years from now the necessary technology will just appear *poof* in our laps ready for us to go to warp speed. I'm angry at Americans not America's space program!

Well they could carry a mess of GLXP or even MER class rovers on the first Altair in place of the crew and supplies and then turn them loose in 20 different directions after it lands.
Maybe even bring chariot on the first mission and have the ascent stage gutted for payload the first lunar Altair might not even need an ascent stage as that can be tested in LEO.
Crashing it into the moon vs landing is not going to prove it can land it only would test the abort mode which probably can be tested via cheaper methods today.

 

[MrcACrl]

:twisted: Ok, I'm angry. I'm angry that NASA has had no direction. First, they develop a direction to go to the Moon and then to Mars. It seemed reasonable enough, just get the funding. Then Bush won't give Nasa the funding to do the job. Then Obama comes in and shows a complete disregard for the agency and may not only not give them a budget but also completely change the focus of the agency as a whole. We the people of this country who support Nasa and spaceflight as taxpayers are mad. We are mad at getting played. We are mad at seeing a lack of leadership and I'm really mad at former astronauts such as Buzz Aldrin who don't know when they are getting played saying "we need to go to Mars" and the current administration uses that as a means of dropping the lunar program with no intention of ever getting the budget to go to Mars. Right now we are all a bunch of suckers and I'm sick of it. The only hope I see is in the hands of private space, with visionaries such as Elon Musk and Richard Branson leading the way, God bless them. I feel that a lot of us here have to vent. This is the place to do it.

Might as well be angry at your whole country and maybe the whole world for - when it comes down to it - putting space exploration and human spaceflight close to the bottom of their priority list. Be angry that you're just not - up to now - living in the time when space exploration is as gratifying to everyone as earning lots of money. When the majority supports it against competing endeavors, the politicians will support it, and the funding will be there from private and public institutions. You might want to be angry with yourself too; have you been doing enough to promote space exploration other than ranting on a popular science website? Best thing you can do is go sing kum ba ya with one of those space lobby groups - it'll probably be more productive and effective.

 

[footbru]

I'm Australian, so I can only express admiration and wonder at the achievements of NASA and the willingness of the American taxpayer to support such amazing stuff.

I'm angry at Australia for not contributing to space science. A first world country that, beyond hostng some telescopes, does not contribute.

In regard NASA, I wonder whether it should as a FIRST priority, quickly switch it's efforts to developing a space based energy system, so we can get away from the use of fossil fuels and nuclear power plants once and for all.

Put Mars and the moon into second priority, and get some solar platforms into orbit that can collect solar energy and beam it back to earth.

 

[rabit85]

How can anybody claim that an extra 35 or even 50 billion dollars over a decade for NASA to go to the moon and beyond is too much for the US to afford when 786 billion dollars is spent annually on defense. I mean come on.... the next closest nation spends less then 11% of that figure on defense (so who are we defending against???). So the argument of not having the money is kind of a poor excuse I feel.....rather it is an issue of reckless, unnecessary and wasteful spending on the part of congress that we are even in this situation (in regards to NASA's future) in the first place.

P.S- Before anybody accuses me of being anti-military, pacifist or 'whatever' I strongly support a powerful and capable US military. What I do not support is a bloated, inefficient bureaucracy that wastes extrodinarily large sums of money every year that could be better spent on programs that inspire people, creates new opportunity's for american's to be innovative and successful in a competitive world!

 

[PresidenToor]

Why you should be Angry, in General

The problem, from a non-childish - I have too much time on my hands I'm going to write a blithering post on the Space.com forums so people can really see how I feel - perspective, is multifaceted. This means that you shouldn't really blame just NASA , just Congress, just the southern States, just Bush, or just Obama.

The problem is literally everywhere. Knowing something about the legislature and working as a bureaucrat I know how budget battles are fought, and NASA has fought them poorly, if at all. My saying goes like this, "you're either willing to fight a battle with Congress over funding, or end up fighting a battle of non-existence." When Congress sees you as being irrelevant, you become nothing but another agency with another appropriations request, not something special, patriotic, noteworthy, plaque made ready, or monumentally dedicated. When the game becomes like this, a game of recognition, you've lost the battle before it's started.

Willing to fight a battle with Congress, on the other hand, means you're willing to make them mad. You're willing to show them your fists rather than your palm-faced and outstretched hands. This is not easily done by NASA whose mandate comes from the President and appropriated through the same source, the whole process of which is inherently political in nature.

So far, you've seen that the "problem," the thing one must be angry at, has already split in three. That includes NASA itself, Congress, and the President. Further complicating the matter is the Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP), whose job it is to help the President and OMB draft requisite appropriations figures. This introduces two more complicating factors into the equation, neither of which operates to under a belief in NASA - it's culture, history, workforce, or product. They operate under political motivations and actuarial cost saving measurements. NASA was established, however under a belief, it was not established under a notion. This fact creates problems as to how the idea of NASA should be approached in today's day-n-age.

To recap, we've seen how NASA, Congress, the President, OSTP, and OMB are the problem, and hopefully you're beginning to see the big picture here. When an issue, or topic covers such a wide diverse range of federal ranking, it is because the topic touches a broad range of Americans in general.

These problems are not so much technical then they are administrative. To build a safer, better, bigger, cheaper rocket is always a teams objective no matter if that team is given $1B to make that happen, or$13 billion . But technical problems are just another underlying problem with NASA that too often gets swept under the carpet. Apart from the whole host of problems with NASA and the things that surround it , NASA lacks a cultural and unified workforce. Such a cubicalized, siloed environment that surrounds NASA extends a lack of creativity and innovation among the people at NASA, further adding to the problems that exist there.

The belief that NASA should exist has always been there,, the polls indicate this as much. But man layers of reform need to be adopt before we ever go far back into Space.

From a flat traditional standpoint. There seems to be three groups of people at NASA. Those who support beefing up ISS, those who support we return to the Moon as soon as possible, and those that say, 'hey let's skip the Moon and go straight to Mars. Under ideal circumstances, all three should be worked on at the same time. Each one has it's different purposes and each one works off the other in developing NASA technologies and spaceflight.

So , there you go, the a complete short on NASA and, 'yes,' it could use more funding, but that doesn't mean it has what it takes to search their souls for that beef that gave them the fire from Icharus.

 

[Skibo1219]

Has anyone read the article at http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/a-space-program-for-the-rest-of-us ???
IMO, the politicians that vote on the NASA budget are the real cause of problem there, they are not scientists so probably think that the shuttle is a bad badminton joke. It is obvious that NASA needs to be FFRDC (federally funded) for it to truly accomplish anything significant. Imagine NASA charging our military to launch a spy satellite instead of it coming out of its own pocket-funding. I can see NASA working better with other companies in a most productive way as well.
But that still leave the problem of NASA administrators that are politically "hired", instead of actual qualified people doing the work. Obama did put in 2 people that *appear* to be qualified better then Griffin and his egotistical goals. Are we gonna see an infrastructure designed and implemented - prolly not until you get the 8th grade educated politician off the funding panel ( I just got more jobs for my hometown! OmGdZrz I rock, now I'm guaranteed to win the next election again!! /sarcasm off).
If they COULD return to basics and redesign the shuttle I'm sure it would a few tons lighter. Speaking of which, why dont just leave a shuttle in orbit ? :evil:

 

[bbfreakDude]

Hell, let's just dust off the old Saturn V and get rolling again. Heh, I'm kidding of course, but that thing was a dream machine. I sometimes wonder why we're working so hard to reinvent the wheel when we had the Saturn booster 40 years ago. You'd think they could start with that and build something new with that vehicle as the foundation.

Its not that simple, we've lost that capability over the 37 years we stopped flying the Saturn V. While we have all the technical documents, that isn't enough. You also have to know why they built it this way, from an engineering stand point. Unfortunately, many of the people who made the Saturn V happen aren't around anymore, so it isn't like you can ask them.

So not quiet starting from scratch, but close enough.

 

[Mars_Unit]

I am miffed at NASA and G W Bush for allowing that dunce to run the program! Griffin wasted $40 Billion on Ares 1 rocket, the so called "Frankenrocket" or "The Stick" which pours Chlorine into the atmosphere and pollutes way more than Atlas V or Delta IV Heavy!

We have to go green in every way and NASA must lead the way in zero polluting vehicles. The North Polar Ice Cap has melted and Greenland will melt in 2013 and Antarctica soon thereafter!

Did Congress and NASA do an environmental Impact study on the Ares 1 SRB? No! Why? Corruption!

I filed several anti trust complaints with the DOJ and cited irregularities and corrupt practices. The fix was in from the beginning. Astronauts and engineers are now making money off of this.

Thank Jehovah the Ares 1 Rocket will be canceled. I hate the polluting SRB's and they should not be used until they use a non polluting fuel, which exists. It is like candle wax from what I heard.

The SRB stick will vibrate too much and USAF now says the launch escape system may kill the Astronauts with this poorly designed, politically correct, designed by comittee, rocket system.

The cost of this piece of junk science will be way too high next to the other launchers.

I am sending Elon Musk $1000 from my Social Security Disability Pension to help him! Use PayPal! Support Outer Space Exploration!

Obama fired Griffin for his wasting billions to build a safer rocket. He has directed NASA to use USAF rockets.

I believe that after the first flight of Ares 1, it will be canceled.

If you post this kind of thread at NASA Spaceflight.com forums they will delete it because they are openly for Ares 1 and dont give a hot damn if the Oceans rise and flood our coastal cities.

The moderator over there deletes posts and threads critical of Ares 1. They censor people. I quit that phony forum.

Ares IV and V might launch about 20 times before it becomes obsolete from Laser Powered Light Craft.

Like the Saturn V, it will cost too much.

The Space Shuttle Challenger would NOT have exploded, had Gene Kranz waited until warm weather, but no, he launched Challenger in 29 degree Fahrenheit weather. It was Kranz fault! He was responsible and he was not ever punished.

They dont punish heroes.

I cannot believe NASA never solved the foam shedding problem. I would use patches of Turkey netting to reinforce the foam. That foam bipod ramp never should have been made. They should have used heaters.

 

[lrey9876]

I am not angry at NASA per se,
If we were to believe all what the Contrarians write/say, then the World Governments are really at fault, because they DO KNOW about the Alien presence on the Moon.
Most likely Earth and that Alien presence have signed or agreed not to cause any harm to either one and that's why we are resuming our original goal:
TO GET TO THE MOON, MARS, establishing outposts, etc.,

 

[doom_shepherd]

I am not angry.

Anger is an emotion indulged in by the weak. It leads to unclear thinking, untenable actions, and irrational posts on message boards. It discourages true action. Also leads to the blame game being played - a game in which there are only losing moves... like blaming the recent economy on anything other than problems with have been systematic and increasing for at least the last 30 years... probably more like 40. :roll:

(If you simply MUST blame someone, blame the folks who took the Apollo funding away from NASA and gave it to the military to win Vietnam... and then to the Democrats to end poverty... neither of which worked, even though they kept the money. Also blame the folks who kept the money.)

If I were angry at someone, I would have to be angry at us. You know, the people who moan behind keyboards but don't take any real action*, and when election time rolls around again we keep on with the same old yellow-dog voting patterns, instead of actually paying attention to the candidate's real actions and behaviors towards this idea we love so much. We got what we voted for. (Or against, for those few of us who were actually paying attention.)

Lesson 1: The gut reaction, the candidate's first statements, and the votes they cast, are always the truth. Everything they say in public after the election cycle actually gets going? Vote-getting. Listen carefully.

*Those of you who actually ARE active - you research and vote for the space-supporters, even if you have to cross Party lines, you go out and educate other people about the real benefits that space has given, continues to give, and has the potential to give us all, or even if you only set up a telescope for the neighbor kids once in a while, just to give them a push in the right direction... and most especially those of you who actually do the real WORK involving our space program... I salute you. You deserve to be called "real" people.

I would also have to be angry at the rest of "Joe Public," half of whom would clearly rather see money poured down the bottomless open sewer of politically-motivated social programs than spent in directions that actually encourage innovation and discovery... and the other half who want us all to be so scientifically ******** that we actually consider Creationism as a legitimate "theory" rather than the totally pseudoscientific "pulled-out-of-someone's-butt" guess that it actually is.

Lesson 2: As Agent K put it... "A person is smart. PEOPLE are dumb, panicky animals, and you know it." Therefore a wise man will ignore PEOPLE at all times. Opinion polls are worth the used toilet paper they should be printed on.

There are other lessons... but I don't have the time. Got to get ready. Showing a group of elementary schoolkids a slideshow about the solar system later today.

Remain calm. You can kick more ass that way.

 

[Skibo1219]

I would also have to be angry at the rest of "Joe Public," half of whom would clearly rather see money poured down the bottomless open sewer of politically-motivated social programs than spent in directions that actually encourage innovation and discovery..

you forget the "female factor" here of which 25% (guesstimate) are stay-at-home-professional-shop-o-holics that have increasing desires for new shoes every other day which is directly proportional to the income level of Joe Public, while uneducated in anything that requires an IQ over 80, just does not care where the government money is spent as long as it doesn't interfere with her shopping.

 

[spacechuck]

Hello I am a long time amateur astronomer, first time poster. I have to say that yes there are people to blame for the current NASA problems. But I also believe we should spend less time agonizing over the past and more on the future. It does suck how the vision of the book 2001 and even the movie 2010 was never realized. What can we do though? We eventually have to move on, even though the American public is basically being told eat this 40 year old s:%tburger and be quiet.

 

[def]

be mad at the government not nasa, what would a family do if they do not have enough money they become cheap well thats nasa. if wanna do something about this than help the private space movement.
look the government is in debt and they are getting more poor by the second so they don't give a flying f**k about space exploration.

 

[spiknter]

After reading all the posts on this thread, I really don't see Nasa as having any chance from their current position(s). Now with that being said, I myself don't have any insight on Nasa just a mere outsider receiving general infomation from the media. But anyone can see the importance/impact Nasa has had on all cultures throughout the world since their existance.

I don't think Obama is the answer the next 4 years/8 as well. A independent group that has the insight and passion to privately search out additional funding to assist in Nasa's future could be an asset unless this group is currently present. Enough is Enough, arguing/debating doesn't get the line from A to B any shorter especially in Nasa's position.

 

[nessia]

I am not angry at NASA, I am angry at Congress! we have over a hundred b2 bombers at 11 billion apiece
and only 3 shuttles. We make and distribute modern tech weapons around the world..

Is this all we will be known for? the war power of the 20th and 21th century?
It seems to me we ought to make those very special strides that make us human....the urge to explore...
the urge to civilize new places....instead of boasting how many we or our allies blow up.
Besides....a big budget NASA will help prime the economic pump, and discover new products for
our economy.
Nessia

 

[lostexplorer]

Im not angry at NASA, they do the best they can with what they get. You want results, tell them excatly what your goals are, stick to them give them the money to get it done.....800 billion in stimulus money for a select few that couldnt run there business right and what do we get out of it.....nothing but more of the socialism.....You want to do great things then you have to set high goals and let people try to acomplish those goals, we apparrently have become more interested id the day to day nothing than doing anything great....a nation of children that watch reality shows adn need taken care of.......such a terrible waste of potential....the children of explorers, colonist and settlers, independant hardworking people willing to take risk and do great things have forgotten what made us a great nation...

 

[spiknter]

LOST,

You hit it on the head with the stimulus reply, Nasa's think tank(s) should discussing private stimulus, when Obama's administration gives auto companies stimulus they surely sent the u-turn signal to Nasa from pre-election speeches.

 

[heroineworshipper]

So they found problems in Venturestar & started over with Ares 1. 7 years & $4,000,000,000 later, they found problems with Ares 1 & started over with Ares IV. In another 7 years, they'll find problems with Ares IV & start over again. When are they ever going to actually solve the problems instead of give up? Does China stop making cars because they have accidents?

 

[spiknter]

Nasa is constantly scrutinized by the media and the gov, so department heads (ck their tenure length) dont stay around for the long term, China's space program is definitely not scrutinized by their media because the government runs both.

 

[controltestguy]

Angry is not the right word. More like disgusted. As a country, we've lost that sense of adventure and purpose. We were leaders and very soon we'll be followers of China and the Japanese. I wouldn't be surprised if North Korea makes it to Mars before we do. The Private sector needs to lead the way but it has to be profitable at some point. Perhaps asteroid mining, tourism to the moon, etc.

We've waited too long and NASA and Congress and every president except JFK needs to share the blame. I probably won't get to see the next man-on-the-moon in my lifetime and I'm really disappointed in our country when it comes to the Space Program (For want of a better phrase). So what can we do about?

CTG

 

[spiknter]

Nasa hasn't been receiving their projected budget bids from the fed for years, I sincerely believe they need to aggressively pursue the private sector, how to do that I do not know. But I think with the new money
the green movement is starting to see (due to alternative technologies etc.) there has to be some sort of financial path that can be sustainable for their programs.

 

[Ruri]

I am miffed at NASA and G W Bush for allowing that dunce to run the program! Griffin wasted $40 Billion on Ares 1 rocket, the so called "Frankenrocket" or "The Stick" which pours Chlorine into the atmosphere and pollutes way more than Atlas V or Delta IV Heavy!

We have to go green in every way and NASA must lead the way in zero polluting vehicles. The North Polar Ice Cap has melted and Greenland will melt in 2013 and Antarctica soon thereafter!

Did Congress and NASA do an environmental Impact study on the Ares 1 SRB? No! Why? Corruption!

I filed several anti trust complaints with the DOJ and cited irregularities and corrupt practices. The fix was in from the beginning. Astronauts and engineers are now making money off of this.

Thank Jehovah the Ares 1 Rocket will be canceled. I hate the polluting SRB's and they should not be used until they use a non polluting fuel, which exists. It is like candle wax from what I heard.

The SRB stick will vibrate too much and USAF now says the launch escape system may kill the Astronauts with this poorly designed, politically correct, designed by comittee, rocket system.

The cost of this piece of junk science will be way too high next to the other launchers.

I am sending Elon Musk $1000 from my Social Security Disability Pension to help him! Use PayPal! Support Outer Space Exploration!

Obama fired Griffin for his wasting billions to build a safer rocket. He has directed NASA to use USAF rockets.

I believe that after the first flight of Ares 1, it will be canceled.

If you post this kind of thread at NASA Spaceflight.com forums they will delete it because they are openly for Ares 1 and dont give a hot damn if the Oceans rise and flood our coastal cities.

The moderator over there deletes posts and threads critical of Ares 1. They censor people. I quit that phony forum.

Ares IV and V might launch about 20 times before it becomes obsolete from Laser Powered Light Craft.

Like the Saturn V, it will cost too much.

The Space Shuttle Challenger would NOT have exploded, had Gene Kranz waited until warm weather, but no, he launched Challenger in 29 degree Fahrenheit weather. It was Kranz fault! He was responsible and he was not ever punished.

They dont punish heroes.

I cannot believe NASA never solved the foam shedding problem. I would use patches of Turkey netting to reinforce the foam. That foam bipod ramp never should have been made. They should have used heaters.

I agree with most of your post.
Most of the shuttle LOC events were due to management vs engineering.
ATK called to warn NASA to not launch the shuttle because they had Titian IIIs that used a very similar booster blow up from O-ring sealing issues in cold weather.
After the idiots are cleaned out of management I think NASA should partner with reaction engines on Skylon for a long term replacement for the shuttle.
Short term fund COTS-D and man rate the EELVs the Delta IV-H can do the job and only use shuttle derived hardware for things over 45Tons.
If it appears Dragon or another vehicle can do Orion's job for less then great consider it but always make sure there are two crew transport vehicles.
The biggest mistake with the shuttle was they had no backup vehicle.
Though this is congress's fault for killing the Saturn production lines.

 

[alanh_7]

I cannot say I am upset with NASA. NASA is a government agency that follows the directives of the Government. As such, NASA has never been given a clear directive with the proper funding to accomplish a set goal since Kennedy made his speach at Rice University in 1962. Since then there has been poorly funded, suffering unclear goals and never had President who stood behind the agency. As a result NASA has flowndered.
Not that NASA has not made its share of mistakes. The shuttle program was a worthy program but never lived up to its billing. NASAs sold the shuttle to congress as routine affordable spaceflight. And as it turns out the shuttle is neither cheap, nore does in fly any more often than the Gemini or Apollo missions of the 60s.
The shuttle has bogged the Manned space program into low earth orbit for two generations. The spin off ISS promisses to further bog down the program in low earth orbit while giving little return.
I think NASA needs a clearly defined mission with a long term goal and the money to accomplish it. A return to the moon is a good start. But a manned mission to Mars should be the ulitmate goal, sooner rather than later. To achieve that goal they will need a President that will back the agency, offering a clear objective and funding. I do not see that happening with the Obama administration.
I am not angry at NASA, but NASA has made short sighted errors that need corrected. I am upset with the lack of politcal will and how little support the Space program gets from the American People and its space partners.