Apollo 11

zenonmars · Jul 21, 2006

Is this permissable? OLD missions should not be forgotten, should they? http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/13/1654200 (warning: large PDF) http://www.honeysucklecreek.net.nyud.net:8080/Apollo_11/tapes/Search_for_SSTV_Tapes.pdf This is totally non-trivial. I have moved this from my "Phenomena" thread, since nobody even commented, dispite dozens and dozens of "views". This is where it all began. You can ignore me, but you cannot ignore this. Please pay attention!!! (From the links in the post above

The Search for the Apollo 11 SSTV Tapes John M. Sarkissian, 21 May 06 Operations Scientist CSIRO Parkes Observatory "For the past several years a group of dedicated former Apollo 11 personnel have been searching for the original magnetic data tapes that contain the high quality Slow-Scan TV of the Apollo 11 EVA. "The SSTV was of superior quality to the scan-converted pictures viewed by the world. "In 1970, the tapes were placed in the US National Archives in Accession #69A4099. By 1984, all but two of the over 700 boxes of Apollo era magnetic tapes placed in the Accession, were removed and returned to the GSFC for permanent retention. These tapes are now missing. • These missing data tapes include the raw Apollo 11 SSTV tapes. For the past several years, a search for these tapes has been undertaken by several former Apollo 11 personnel. To date, no Apollo 11 SSTV tapes have been found. • When the tapes are found, it is hoped to recover the original, high quality SSTV of the first lunar EVA and to release it to the public for the first time <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

drwayne · Jul 21, 2006

"Is this permissable?" Given the volume of data and equipment and just plain stuff that the government generates - losses are pretty much inevitable. Ironically, just the other day, I got pinged about a laptop computer that had died a couple of years ago, and that I had turned in. In Rose Law Firm fashion, a friend of mine stumbled across it in a corner of the lab, where the person in charge of turning it in had left it. Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

zenonmars · Jul 22, 2006

I see..... quote: "698 of the 700 boxes of original tapes have gone missing" Inevitable??? THAT'S ALMOST 700!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DrWayne, come on now!!! "Given the volume of data and equipment and just plain stuff that the government generates - losses are pretty much inevitable." You misplaced a laptop. Not 698 laptops. "Losing" these archives of our first manned Moon Mission, to us space fans and all American citizens, is tantamount to "losing" the Declaration of Independence, the Washington Monument, and the Statue of Liberty -- ALL IN THE SAME DAY!!!! DrWayne? How can you be so cavalier? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

henryhallam · Jul 22, 2006

If you're suggesting some sort of conspiracy, please come out with it and say so, so that there's a legitimate reason to delete or move this thread. It does not belong here.

zenonmars · Jul 22, 2006

Lolol............Henry!!! Would I suggest such foolishness? In the Missions and Launches threads? No, sorry. Ain't gonna happen. But thanks for your "delete or move this thread. It does not belong here"knee-jerk reaction. No, this time, and this time only, I am looking for some concern, some shock, some outrage. Shuttle disasters? NASA de-funding? Hubble abandonment? These things have all caused us collective concern in the past. But the lost of close to 700 tapes is beyond belief and reason. I am not looking for blame, and am not looking for conspiracy. (It is obvious, henry, that those ideas will float through minds no matter what I say or don't say, huh?) I am not even calling for action. No, simply, I am looking for the appropriate grieving among these SDC readers, posters, and moderators. That TV film treasure is unequaled, in my opinion, in the history of our species. They might possibly be the single most valuable human possession existant on this planet Earth. So again, I ask, doesn't this bother anybody here? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

drwayne · Jul 22, 2006

"DrWayne? How can you be so cavalier?" The laptop was merely a funny story. But it did illustrate one point. It had been properly turned in, but the paper trail had been lost, and it was not known where it was. At that point, the only way people find things is if someone remembers where they put it. When you are talking about vast volumes of material (that make 1000 boxes look like a shoebox) - kept track of by an ever changing compliment of questionably qualified personnel, with ever changing records systems - it is, alas, inevitable that things will get lost. I am not cavalier ... realistic, arguably fatalistic. Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

henryhallam · Jul 22, 2006

Yes, it is very sad. Sorry for my knee-jerk reaction. We can maybe take a little comfort that with the increased prevalence of computers, records and backups are easier to keep. The footage from the next moonwalks should look fantastic in stunning resolution with a digital format that can be preserved without degradation. Some people have done a very good job of collecting what material there is still available: http://www.spacecraftfilms.com/ http://www.geocities.com/bobandrepont/apollopdf.htm

drwayne · Jul 22, 2006

Keep in mind that Apollo 11 was at the start of a series of flights to the moon that happened in, what today would seem like rapid succession too... Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

drwayne · Jul 22, 2006

Sorry, had to take care of something. In some ways, the emphasis was on making history, not neccessarily keeping it. By the time Apollo 11 happened, the budgets were already tightening - to a degree, the writing was on the wall - so it would not surprise me to see some issues with checking things in... Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

upinthesky · Jul 26, 2006

In case you are interested, NPR's Morning Edition is scheduled to do a piece on the missing tapes Thursday, July 27.

lampblack · Jul 26, 2006

Of course, there's also this. A treasure trove of Apollo-related info, including quite a bit of film transferred to streaming media: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/apollo.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Just tell the truth and let the chips fall... </div>

drwayne · Jul 26, 2006

Thanks. I usually listen to ME on the drive into work. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

CalliArcale · Jul 27, 2006

That is very sad news. <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /> I can't say I'm shocked, though. Angry, yes, but not shocked. Knowing how the government deals with this sort of thing, I am not overly surprised. I'm just very sad it had to be Apollo data that got lost. Hopefully it's just lost in the beaurocratic shuffle and not actually destroyed. In an event infamous among Whovians, a miscommunication at the BBC led to the masters for hundreds of Doctor Who episodes being slated for destruction, even though they were specifically exempt from the archive purge, along with other popular programs still in production at the time. Quite a few were fed to the incinerator before somebody realized what was going on. I would not be surprised if the same thing happens occasionally in the government, which has considerably more data to keep track of. Data management is a huge effort, often underestimated. Data retention is an even bigger problem, because oftentimes it means managing data long past the time the money for a particular program has run out. Who is responsible for the data? Where should it be stored? How is the paper trail maintained? The single biggest problem is that oftentimes there isn't anyone stepping forward to take ownership of a particular document -- and even when there is, that person will sooner or later leave their job, for one reason or another. That's a major place for things to get lost: when the person responsible for them retires or changes careers or something. It frustrates and saddens me, but unfortunately it does not surprise me. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

upinthesky · Jul 27, 2006

Morning edition is on in the morning, 7 a.m. I think. The segment was postponed again, probably will air Friday or Monday. The reporter is Nell Boyce (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4494969), interviewed Goddard reps and the man who developed the lunar TV camera for Westinghouse.

drwayne · Jul 27, 2006

Media has a way of changing as well, so recorded material, even if it doesn't become unreadable by natural causes, can become unreadable because the machines to read it has been discarded... Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

drwayne · Jul 27, 2006

I love an old telemetry decoding challenge. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

tomnackid · Jul 28, 2006

Certainly true for government agencies, but there is an informal 'geek squad' at just about every electronic media organization that snaps up the dumpster treasures to play with. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This brings up an interesting point. Could the tapes have been "liberated" by a private collector/space enthusiast? They probably looked at the buildings full of Apollo data and figured NASA hasn't bothered with this stuff in decades they won't miss it. There was that museum director who went to jail last year for supposedly pocketing a bunch of Apollo memorabilia that passed through his hands.

drwayne · Jul 28, 2006

I have to admit, if I were in a position in which I had access to materials like that which were just collecting dust, I would be pretty tempted. I'd like to think I wouldn't, but I would probably be peeking if I thought I could get away with it. Wayne p.s. When I was in graduate school, my friends and I had a blast on many times, poking around in the attic, gawking at, and in some cases playing with old demonstration and measurement equipment that had obviously not been touched in years - even decades. We never took anything though... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

upinthesky · Jul 31, 2006

Check out: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5578853

drwayne · Jul 31, 2006

Thank you sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

ozspace · Jul 31, 2006

To get an idea of what these tapes should look like, take a look at the Australian Honeysuckle Creek website: http://www.honeysucklecreek.net/Apollo_11/index.html It shows some of the slow scan unconverted images. Edit If you look on the left menu bar you'll find links to video that was never seen outside of Australia. It was taken on Super 8 from the monitor at Honeysuckle Creek by Ed von Renouard.

zenonmars · Aug 14, 2006

News: http://www.space.com/news/060813_apollo11_tapes.html Something I find interesting: "The entire lunar data hide and seek saga that’s alive and well here in the U.S. is being repeated in Russia too. “I work with people in Moscow who are trying to recover old lunar data,” Stooke added." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

maxg · Oct 5, 2006

I wonder why ALL of the stories about the Apollo 11 TV mention Goldstone, Honeysuckle Creek and PARKS. Pasks was only used for Apollo 11 video, it was not tracking the lander or the command module. Why is it that people forget that Carnarvon was the prime Australian NASA station for ALL of the Apollo Lunar landings. We, and I was there, recorded ALL of the data from the CSM and the LEM, watched the video of the landing and tracked every shot, plus the Alsep Packages and the Lunar Orbiror Puff, which eventually hit a lunar hill. In the much publicised stories of the Lunar Lie, I wonder just how NASA got all of that false data into the tracking stations like Carnarvon, which were locked onto that even rather solidly. Peopl;e who talk about that Lie know very little about the NASA network, or the stations on foreign soil, or the people concerned. I doubt they, NASA, would have found any of the astronaughts willing to play games if they knew that being on the moon was not on the agenda. I think there is some growing up to do. Get real. Max Garth.

telfrow · Oct 5, 2006

Thread moved to from M&L to Phenomena, inasmuch as it deals with the "moon landing hoax." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

qso1 · Oct 5, 2006

Maxg: Why is it that people forget that Carnarvon was the prime Australian NASA station for ALL of the Apollo Lunar landings. Me: Most people don't recall the names of the men that walked on the moon on that mission. Maxg: In the much publicised stories of the Lunar Lie, I wonder just how NASA got all of that false data into the tracking stations like Carnarvon... Me: The hoax believers don't bother letting little things like that get in the way. They probably didn't even consider the data logistics. Maxg: Peopl;e who talk about that Lie know very little about the NASA network, or the stations on foreign soil, or the people concerned. Me: They also know very little about spaceflight, astronomy, physics. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> My borrowed quote for the time being:There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened. </div>

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