Does Time Actually Exist?

[norisk]

Does time actually exist? It did a minute ago?!<br /><br />I posted "A Modest Proposal..." in the Space area, appealing for a more judicious use of words, such as "time." Please check it out.<br /><br />What exists is a series of points called "now." What does NOT exist is a universe-wide method of measuring "now" or "then." All current measurements are relative to the speed of the observer.<br /><br />"Time" as measured by a clock in the hand of an observer moving at one rate of speed, in one field of gravity is not an adequate theoretical device for addressing the measure of change within another point of reference (different speed, different gravitational field).<br /><br />Please read my post in the science section: "A Modest Proposal."<br /><br />Time, as measured by a clock, is only locally significant. Time must be measured against an arbitrary but universally accepted standard: "Intergalactic Standard Time" - IST.<br /><br />Bill Ross

 

[newtonian]

SVMsmiles - Are you accounting for relativistic time effects which will cause the time experienced to change for a rapid traveler leaving earth and coming back with the time experienced by someone who stayed back here on earth?<br /><br />Experiments have proved these effects by actual observations using clocks, btw.<br /><br />This is not mere mental concept of time - it is an actual difference in time flow.

 

[newtonian]

norisk - Does IST exist???<br /><br />You might want to change the acronym from IST to IGT. <br /><br />For example, ISM means interstellar medium while IGM means intergalactic medium.<br /><br />You would need a reference point - perhaps the singularity at the Big Bang? <br /><br />Problem is, how would universal time be integrated with local sections of universe if indeed the universe has or is expanding faster than light???<br /><br />I would prefer using God's concept of time, btw. Except that is beyond me!

 

[norisk]

<norisk><br />Marcel posted a few posts ago:<br /><br />"My point being we will never achieve an ability to travel at the speed of light, or even faster then FTL; until we amend our definition of “Time”. <br />"<br /><br />I cannot agree more. I hope he read my "A Modest Proposal" in the Science forum.<br /><br />To answer the question "does time exist" I could be a bit of a smart alec and say "Yes, I just invented it." That is because, if time is "the measure of change" and we lack an adequate measuring stick, then a universal "measure of change" does NOT exist. But, if my measuring stick is, at least in theory (because the calculation to find IGT is daunting), a realistic way to measure change with universally significant and accurate numbers, then time has come to be.<br /><br />Of course, there are other things that "does time exist" may be asking:<br /><br />* does there exist a measure of change? To which the answer is, of course - your watch. But, it is relative time, only relevant to a single observer (or common observers)<br /><br />* is there a characteristic of the universe such that "now" is the same everywhere in the universe? The answer is "yes, but in the absence of a universal time standard, it is an unknowable, unmeasurable and entirely subjective experience."<br /><br />Absolute time as a series of legitimate points called "now" that is the same anywhere and everywhere exists (by the definition of now), but time as a universally accurate measure of change does not self-exist. That will only exist as we make it exist in the manner I describe - by accepting an arbitrary reference point (Big Bang is ok, or Greenwich time) and inventing measuring tools synchronized to that reference point. <br /><br />If we take these steps then time, "the [universally accurate] measure of change" exists. Otherwise, no.<br /><br />ISTM that Einstein's theories have been proved well enough that we should begin accommodating our language, our tools and our institutsions to the new rea

 

[norisk]

<norisk><br />Making an IST (or GST, or whatever works...) watch may not turn out to be as complicated as I originally thought. We would have to find some element in the universe that is not affected by relativity (and light springs to mind) that can be compared to something that is, such as a vibrating crystal generating radio waves, and constantly monitor the discrepancy.<br /><br />Bill Ross

 

[norisk]

<Newtonian><br /> />>Problem is, how would universal time be integrated with local sections of universe if indeed the universe has or is expanding faster than light??? <br /><br /><Bill /><br />All that is needed is an agreed upon standard. Assuming regularity in the expansion, it would conflate the numbers equally, and thus not effect our measurment (because we are measuring change relevant to an arbitrary point, not to a presumed-to-be-stationary point). Ie: -6:00 GMT is -6:00 GMT regardless of how fast or often the Earth rotates.<br /><br /><Newtonian /><br /> />>I would prefer using God's concept of time, btw. Except that is beyond me! <br /><br /><Bill /><br />Based on your posts, I assume that you mean that which is taught in "the Bible." Well, wouldn't that be solar and lunar days, months and years?<br /><br />Ge 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:<br />Ps 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.<br />1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.<br /><br />Bill Ross

 

[norisk]

<Bill><br />Well, please forget my last post about the clock... if we could find something that was not effected by relativity, we would have our clock!<br /><br />Bill Ross

 

[newtonian]

norisk - concerning God's concept of time:<br /><br />(Psalm 90:4) . . .For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, And as a watch during the night.<br /><br />(2 Peter 3:8) . . .However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.<br /><br />Since God is called "Ancient of Days" in Daniel, this could be partly because of the longer base lifetime - however I suspect it is also due to an actual difference in the flow rate of time - perhaps because the heaven or universe where God dwells has different properties than our universe.<br /><br />That being said, time in our universe viewed from another universe as a reference point might fit what you are looking for.<br /><br />Of course, this is beyond current scientific ability - and is one of many reasons one of the verses you quoted is accurate. Here is a similar verse:<br /><br />(Acts 1:6-7) . . .now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction;. . .<br /><br />Thank you for noting that point - it is relevant and I had overlooked it.

 

[newtonian]

norisk - Is there some formula for conflating, as you term it, time in different FTL (= faster than light) sections of our universe?<br /><br />I thought time would appear to stop from different light speed locations? Of course, you are correct that time would not actually stop - only appear to stop. I.e. all FTL sections of our universe exist the same amount of time after the big bang now - and I emphasize the word: "now." <br /><br />However, real time flow is effected by different speed as I noted above.<br /><br />That would be if one traveled from one FTL section to another in a different light cone or beyond the visibility horizon.<br /><br />Are you familiar with the latter two terms, btw?<br /><br />One more point, and it is crucial: time cannot go backwards.<br /><br />Even God is always spoken of as existing and working forward in time - notably those creative days - whatever their length. <br /><br />Oh - one more point (sorry) - causality (crucially involving time) cannot be violated.

 

[norisk]

<Newtonian><br /> />norisk - concerning God's concept of time: <br />(Psalm 90:4) . . .For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, And as a watch during the night. <br />(2 Peter 3:8) . . .However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. <br /><br /><Bill /><br />I believe that if we take into account the context, the point is that the god is not impatient, not that time operates differently in the sky. Ie: Just because he hasn't not closed the door of opportunity for repentance yet, does not mean that he won't, because time does not put him under pressure as it does us - he can wait as easily for a 1000 years as a day, since he is immortal. David would not have any reason to motivate people to repent by explaining that the god is unable to distinguish differing periods of time, or negating the rulers that he set up.<br /><br /><N /><br /> />>Since God is called "Ancient of Days" in Daniel, this could be partly because of the longer base lifetime - however I suspect it is also due to an actual difference in the flow rate of time - perhaps because the heaven or universe where God dwells has different properties than our universe. <br /><br /><B /><br />The Hebrew scriptures describe a pre-existent chaos from which the god/gods magically bring about two structures:<br /><br />* the sky<br />* the dry land<br /><br />The dry land is caused to emerge from the chaotic waters, and the sky is a ceiling with stars embedded into it like a planetarium. Some of the waters of the chaos are lifted on the top of the ceiling which allows, when the doors of the ceiling are opened, the phenomenon of rain.<br /><br />The sky ceiling is supported by posts.<br /><br />A great light - the sun - travels from one end of the ceiling to the other to:<br /><br />* provide light and warmth<br />* to authoritatively mark off time.<br /><br />A lesser light traverses

 

[norisk]

<Newtonian><br /> />>norisk - Is there some formula for conflating, as you term it, time in different FTL (= faster than light) sections of our universe? <br /><br /><Bill /><br />Yes:<br /><br />x /> C<br /><br />My "modest proposal" is, to be honest, over 99% donkey dust because:<br /><br />* I am proposing a digital calculation of an analog (an accellerating body) <br />* the variables, such as FTL, if such exist, would likely so vex the poor guys at Rolex trying to invent my watch, and cause them bleeding migraines <br />* I know precious little about relativity or math, and am in general fuzzy headed from coffee and old age<br /><br />The 1%, though, I think is useful for thinking and discussion, and that is that it is my considered opinion that this is what time will be if it is implemented by real scientists (and not just brash fools like me) - a theoretical universal infinite line of points of "now" that is accurately (though never absolutely, because it is analog, not digital) measured locally by observers and adjusted according to a mostly arbitrary but agreed upon standard reference point and taking into account the factors of relativity. That *invention* is time. Because time is a measure, measures are pragmatic affairs based on so many knots in a rope or the length of the king's foot.<br /><br /><Newtonian /><br /> />>I thought time would appear to stop from different light speed locations? Of course, you are correct that time would not actually stop - only appear to stop. I.e. all FTL sections of our universe exist the same amount of time after the big bang now - and I emphasize the word: "now." <br /><br /><B /><br />I think that you definitely have grasped the concept of measurements adjustment relevant to a fixed point and I find that very gratifying and thank you for your interest and consideration of this matter. Such issues as you raise probably damn the whole project to the junk pile, but I hope that the paradigm is redeemed by its usefu

 

[marcel_leonard]

The Princeton dictionary has these following definitions for Time:<br /><br /><br />• an instance or single occasion for some event; "this time he succeeded"; "he called four times"; "he could do ten at a clip" <br />• an indefinite period (usually marked by specific attributes or activities); "he waited a long time"; "the time of year for planting"; "he was a great actor is his time" <br />• a period of time considered as a resource under your control and sufficient to accomplish something; "take time to smell the roses"; "I didn't have time to finish"; "it took more than half my time" <br />• a suitable moment; "it is time to go" <br />• the continuum of experience in which events pass from the future through the present to the past <br />• clock time: the time as given by a clock; "do you know what time it is?"; "the time is 10 o'clock" <br />• clock: measure the time or duration of an event or action or the person who performs an action in a certain period of time; "he clocked the runners" <br />• fourth dimension: the fourth coordinate that is required (along with three spatial dimensions) to specify a physical event <br />• assign a time for an activity or event; "The candidate carefully timed his appearance at the disaster scene" <br />• a person's experience on a particular occasion; "he had a time holding back the tears"; "they had a good time together" <br />• set the speed, duration, or execution of; "we time the process to manufacture our cars very precisely" <br />• meter: rhythm as given by division into parts of equal duration <br />• regulate or set the time of; "time the clock" <br />• prison term: the period of time a prisoner is imprisoned; "he served a prison term of 15 months"; "his sentence was 5 to 10 years"; "he is doing time in the county jail" <br />• adjust so that a force is applied and an action occurs at the desired time; "The g <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[doc_harra]

Do you remember that time when there was no time when there was nothing, But still that was matter and a time to remember.space time and matter define each other .parra_doc

 

[marcel_leonard]

As I state before; what if we are all experiencing different time continuums? Since none of us can take up the exact same time/space. That would explain why Einstein theory of relativity uses the speed of light as the absolute speed limit the universe. What if there was no absolute speed limit of C=3x10^8 m/s^2.<br /><br />What if we could travel at the speed of our thoughts?<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[braintrain]

Time does not exist in the physical universe.<br />Time is just events after events and is been used in our calculations as digits.<br />Time(events) is also used by our human brain while we speak so we don't overlap sound of a word. It is also used in walking, swimming and many other activity. Even a bee use it to flap its wing in a fix frequency.

 

[norisk]

Was it Einstein's calculations that proved that "Time is Money?"<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[marcel_leonard]

"Well around fools they both disappear at the speed of light".... Fool + His Money = Broke * c^2 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[doc_harra]

sci-fi reply ! "Yeah I'll hide behind the sci-fi reply"<br />Time will continue to pass even after we do !, (doc_morbid) But we don't comprehend that time ! And it continues for infinity thats got to be a lottery that you can never lose *(doc_life) or maybe you do comprehend that time as a Omnipotent being that enforces the laws Of ALL (what ever they ALL are !?) and is bound by none ! Yep, Until you win the lottery *Hay but this dream would need to have an undefinable end that was linked back to the start (Bring on the End, just when I/we/I am/are/am not looking !)- thats all to do with that Omnipotent part all that I/we/am stuff, Message to omnipotent being/Self: You too will say bring on the end (Doc_Hope) The End (Doc's_mind_unleashed) "stand back !" * or just kaput, parra-doc

 

[marcel_leonard]

What makes you think that; if the sub-atomic particles that make up your chemistry suddenly stopped moving that time not take place??? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[newtonian]

ranur - Hi!<br /><br />So, how was our universe created? <br /><br />Do you agree that cause and effect cannot proceed without time?<br /><br />Do you agree that primordial time existed before our universe specific space-time was created?

 

[marcel_leonard]

Newtonian what you call primordial time is really just a fancy way for saying “before creation of the universe by the one and true almighty god”. Even if I could prove that there is a creator of the universe; how can a painting on a canvas ever hope to understand the artist who painted the picture?<br /><br />So I ask again how three dimensional beings can ever think that they can understand a forth dimensional concept such as time. If time does exist it probably only actually exists for the artist.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[marcel_leonard]

Once again I believe our fascination with the concept of time has more to do with our own mortality than anything else… <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[ag30476]

> Was it Einstein's calculations that proved that <br /> /> "Time is Money?" <br />I think Einstein used that to prove Women are Evil with the following proof:<br /><br />Women require time and money, Women = Time x Money<br />And time is money, Time = Money<br />Therefore Women = Money x Money = Money squared<br />But money is the root of all evil, Money = square root of Evil<br />Therefore, Women = (the square rooot of Evil) squared<br />Or Women = Evil<br />QED

 

[abhinavkumar_iitr05]

What is actually length,breadth & height?These are only dimensions to describe the position of any particle.Now to describe the position of the particle in the space is incomplete if we are not mentioning when.Now to take into the account this problem of when the concept of time comes into existance.So what I think about the time is actually is like this:<br /><br />Time is nothing but only a dimension just like length,heigth or breadth.We can consider it as the 4th dimension.<br /><br />As the space cordinate differs in different frame so is the case with time.<br /><br />Anyway its only my view & others have their own.

 

[marcel_leonard]

Actually if you think about it we really don't have a reference; from which to talk intelligently about Time. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>