Fusion in a black hole?

[six_strings]

Heyaz, I know I ask a lot of question about black holes, heh<br /><br />Does anyone have an opinion or data about the possibility of fusion taking place inside or at the singularity of a black hole? I thought atoms were striped to fundamental particles (or theorized) How could fusion occur? IF it did wouldn't it be like an endless cycle? Since the radiation and energy doesn't have any where to go? <br /><br />The reason I ask, I was reading some odd (for lack of better words <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) fellows site, and he was hypothesizing black holes would eventually consume the whole universe (yes, I know acceleration of expansion contradicts this) and then explode by way of fusion reaction inside the black hole? Doesn't this go against our laws of physics?<br /><br />Thanx<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[weeman]

hmmm, if we compare a blackhole to an average start that harbors nuclear fusion, there are many differences. I can't imagine that any type of fusion could occur inside of a blackhole. <br /><br />Stephen Hawking believes that everything comes to an end in a blackhole, all matter is crushed into nothing. Although he is being somewhat criticized by many physicists for this statement within the science community. <br /><br />If we assume that a blackhole is the seemingly infinite power of gravity, and it is gravity's ultimate victory, then I would say, no, fusion cannot occur inside a blackhole. <br /><br />Even if fusion were to suddenly ignite, I don't think it would be able to withstand the crush of gravity, there simply wouldn't be enough force to sustain ongoing hydrostatic equilibrium. <br /><br />The hydrostatic equilibrium in any star, is able to withstand gravity for a period of time. This period of time differs from star to star depending on its size and overall lifespan. However, in a blackhole, gravity would overpower anything. The equilibrium should not be able to take place, meaning that fusion cannot take place. Gravity would be the victor in any battle that fusion tried to fight. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Techies: We do it in the dark. </font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>"Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.</strong><strong>" -Albert Einstein </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

What is inside a black hole is anybodies guess.All things are reduced to quarks.So no question of fusion.Only John Wheeler knows.

 

[six_strings]

Thanx, I was fairly sure our (feeble as it may be) understanding of black holes would suggest it couldn't happen... I couldn't find a direct reference to it on the net to back it up though... <br /><br />Thank you <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

John Wheelers thinkings may help you out.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Archibald_Wheeler

 

[nexium]

Super massive black holes have rather moderate conditions a cm outside the event horizon, so conditions should be similar inside the event horizon by one cm, unless something magic happens at the event horizon. I think there is a slight possibility off both fusion and fission, but not close to the singularity where atomic nucleas are dismantaled into individual quarks, or possibly even further dismantaled. Neil

 

[six_strings]

But it couldn't be sustained right? I just can't comprehend how this guy is coming to a conclusion that a black hole can explode. Unless it's evaporated to a point it is finally releasing its gravatational grip.<br /><br />As was described to me on this thread When a black hole has evaporated > critical mass <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

Not a moderate condition.Infalling partiles heat upto million degrees and generate xrays and gamma rays.Dont venture to think in terms of cms.Think in terms of cicumference.

 

[weeman]

<font color="yellow"> Super massive black holes have rather moderate conditions a cm outside the event horizon, so conditions should be similar inside the event horizon by one cm, unless something magic happens at the event horizon. I think there is a slight possibility off both fusion and fission, but not close to the singulatity where atomic nucleas are dismantaled into individual quarks, or possibly even further dismantaled. </font><br /><br />I'm not sure if supermassive blackholes have a specific purpose in your statement, I would think that they govern the same physics as any other blackhole. I agree with your statement about 1 cm outside of the event horizon, but keep in mind that it may not be the same when you go just 1 cm inside the event horizon. The event horizon is a mathematical boundry, meaning it is very exact. So even if we venture 1 mm across the event horizon, it will be a whole different scenario than the conditions 1 mm outside of the event horizon. <br /><br />At the singularity, it would be impossible for fusion to occur. If fusion is the combining of lighter elements into heavier elements, how can this occur in an environment that dismantles particles into their smallest form? <br /><br />Although, I'm not sure if any fusion could occur even near the event horizon. In a star, fusion takes place in its core, and further out near its surface, temperatures are much to cool to create fusion. In a blackhole, inside the event horizon, the force of gravity is equal to the speed of light. This would require that any fusion within the event horizon has to match this force, meaning that the outward force of fusion energy must also be equal to the speed of light.<br /><br />So, this creates a question to be asked. Can the outward push of nuclear energy ever be powerful enough to withstand the crush of gravity when it is equal to the speed of light?<br /><br />Of course, we also have to assume with this question that light speed is the fastest speed tha <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Techies: We do it in the dark. </font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>"Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.</strong><strong>" -Albert Einstein </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

The question is void ab initio,Black hole starts at much later than fusion.1 cm above above supermassive black hole ?Nothing special in it ,there can be no fusion and thats all.

 

[lukman]

Same reason why fusion wont happen in white dwarft and neutron star. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

A very fundamental thing is in white dwarf upwards,degeneation of matter overcomes gravity.Then there ia no scope for fusion.Likewise for neutron stars.In black holes starving gravity takes over.But then you have no hydroen and other elements to fuse.

 

[alokmohan]

When you take the square root of a negative number, you get an error in your calculator. The square root of a negative number i.e. -1 is demoted in mathematics as i, called the imaginary number. The mathematical functions surrounding the imaginary number are in the typical complex ‘w’ plane. Mathematicians, physicists, and engineers deal with that in a subject matter called “complex Numbers”. <br /><br />When complex numbers are used to make interpretations in Physics, it is called the Complex Physics that is slightly off the mainstream physics. <br /><br />Scientists and engineers all over the world are busy extending the complex physics into the higher dimensions and black hole singularities. Some interesting correlations are coming out. <br /><br />The super string theory fits like T in the Complex Plane around a Limit Cycle around the singularity of black hole. The computer simulations now confirm existence of higher dimensions. The black hole is the entry door to the higher dimensions from our 3-D sp http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/15572.asp<br />

 

[alokmohan]

If we ever make black holes on Earth, they might be much stranger objects than the star-swallowing monsters known to exist in space. According to a new theory, any black hole that pops out of the Large Hadron Collider under construction in Switzerland might be surrounded by a black ring – forming a microscopic "black Saturn".<br />A black hole and a black ring can co-exist, in theory, as long as they are set spinning, say Henriette Elvang of MIT in Cambridge, US, and Pau Figueras of the University of Barcelona in Spain. "If you just had a ring, it would collapse. It's essential that it rotates to keep balanced," Elvang told New Scientist. <br />Just like the central black hole, the ring would be defined by its event horizon, a boundary beyond which nothing can escape the object's gravity. The ring could be thin like a rubber band or fat like a doughnut, and the rotation would flatten it – "like a doughnut that you have squashed," says Elvang. The spinning ring would also drag space-time around with it, making the central black hole spin as well.<br />The black Saturn can only exist in a space with four dimensions, rather than the three we inhabit. In 3D, a black ring is impossible, so there are no big black saturns out there for astronomers to spot – but at a microscopic level, they might really exist.<br />Ring sizesSome attempts to unify the forces of nature, notably string theory, involve extra dimensions of space. The extra dimensions are usually thought to be curled up tight, so small as to be inaccessible, but in some theories they can be big enough – maybe a fraction of a millimetre in size, maybe infinite – to probe with high-energy experiments. They remain hidden from our eyes because although gravity can reach out into these dimensions, all other forces are confined to our 3D world.<br />One consequence of these theories is that at short range, gravity becomes very strong. That means that a relatively small amount of stuff would be needed to make a microscopic

 

[alokmohan]

Comic on black hole apparently.Dont know if you make head or tail of it.http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20011756,00.html

 

[alokmohan]

No takers?

 

[alokmohan]

Take this then. <br /> <br />If you drew a large-scale map of the universe, it would look rather like a map of the U.S. Interstate Highway System. Galaxies line up in filaments that crisscross intergalactic space like freeways. In between the roads are regions of relatively low density: the cosmic countryside. And at the crossroads, where multiple filaments converge, are clusters of galaxies: the cosmic megacities. <br />The size of these clusters is daunting. It takes light a little more than a second to reach Earth from the moon and eight minutes to reach Earth from the sun. Light from the center of our Milky Way galaxy must make a journey of 25,000 years to reach us. Even that is fairly quick compared with the time required for light to cross a galaxy cluster--about 10 million years. In fact, clusters are the largest gravitationally bound bodies in the universe. The roadlike filaments may be larger in sheer size, but they are not coherent bodies held together by gravity....continued at Scientific American Digital <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /> <br /> <br /><br /><br /> <br /> NEWS FROM OUR PARTNER <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Reversal of Fortune: Researchers Erase Symptoms of Autism Spectrum Disorder<br />New Cells from Old Brains <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /><br />See your ad here

 

[alokmohan]

Orinal poster missing.Inside a black hole?

 

[why06]

your link is messed up... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[dragon04]

<font color="yellow">The reason I ask, I was reading some odd (for lack of better words ) fellows site, and he was hypothesizing black holes would eventually consume the whole universe (yes, I know acceleration of expansion contradicts this) and then explode by way of fusion reaction inside the black hole? Doesn't this go against our laws of physics?<br /></font><br /><br />BH's <b>can't</b> consume the Universe. They are very exotic, and we can't know what happens at the singularity because we can't see past the Planck Limit due to the required energies involved.<br /><br />But from outside the event horizon, a BH interacts with everything else like mormal matter would.<br /><br />Here's what I think. Take the sun, as an example. When enough mass (hydrogen atoms) came together, fusion started, and the Sun became a star.<br /><br />Stretching out from the Sun, there was tons of matter. The matter influenced by the resultant gravity of the Sun undoubtedly "sucked in" material if it was close enough, but the Planets are living proof that the Sun couldn't suck everything back in.<br /><br />Matter accreted, and planets were formed. They eventually evolved into bodies with stable orbits.<br /><br />In terms of our Galaxy, think about our supermassive central black hole as a very, very large Sun. Stuff orbits it, and some stuff gets sucked in, but there are also stars being <b>ejected</b> from the galaxy.<br /><br />At some point, just as in our Solar System, there will be a "zone" of clean space between the central BH and everything that orbits it.<br /><br />What we don't know is how long that takes. What we DO know is that we have yet to observe it.<br /><br />Even relatively small amounts of matter accelerating towards a BH yield a LOT of energy as is circles in to the event horizon.<br /><br />Any object or objects that have sufficient orbital velocity don't care about that mean old black hole, just like Earth doesn't care about getting sucked into the Sun.<br /><br />As far as <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

I fail to understand how fusion is possible in degenerated matter.Surely you know what is degenerated matter.

 

[enigma10]

Under the effect of the gravitational collapse of a core heavier than 1.4 solar masses, the matter is forced into a <b>degenerate state</b> :<i> electrons are unable to remain in their orbits around the nuclei</i> (they would have to traver faster than light in order to obey the Pauli exclusion principle) and they are forced to penetrate the atomic nuclei. So they fuse with protons, and form neutrons.<br /><br />Pauli's principle forbids two neutrons having the same state to stay in the same place . This principle creates a degeneracy pressure fighting against gravity, and so allows the remnant of the star to find an equilibrium state.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"<font color="#333399">An organism at war with itself is a doomed organism." - Carl Sagan</font></em> </div>

 

[weeman]

Hmm, I am not entirely educated on this subject Enigma, perhaps you could continue with your statement <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />If you say that the electrons penetrate the nuclei, it almost sounds like it would pertain to nuclear fission, rather than nuclear fusion. If a star exceeds the solar mass of 1.4, it ends it's life as a white dwarf, and becomes a neutron star, right? <br /><br />In a neutron star, the hydrostatic equilibrium is acheived through the packing of neutrons. From what I know, the equilibrium is because the neutrons are packed as close as nature physically allows, meaning the gravity can't crush them any tighter.<br /><br />If you take a plasma that consists almost entirely of neutrons, you could compress it tighter and tighter, eventually you will reach a point at which nature will not allow you to compress it any further.<br /><br />I think the beginning of this thread was asking if fusion can occur in a blackhole in the same ways that it occurs in the Sun. It occurs in the sun with incredible temperatures, releasing massive amounts of energy. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Techies: We do it in the dark. </font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>"Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.</strong><strong>" -Albert Einstein </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

You better read on death of stars.You are confusing.

 

[enigma10]

I think for you to understand, you must first understand Pauli exclusion principle which states that no two electrons in an atom can be in the same state or configuration at the same time. It accounts for the observed patterns of light emission from atoms. The principle has since been generalized to include the whole class of particles called fermions. The spin of such particles is always an odd whole-number multiple of 1/2. For example, electrons have spin 1/2, and can occupy two distinct states with opposite spin directions. The Pauli exclusion principle indicates, therefore, that only two electrons are allowed in each atomic energy state, leading to the successive buildup of orbitals around the nucleus. This prevents matter from collapsing to an extremely dense state.<br /><br /> <i><b>def</b></i>-<font color="orange">Fermions are a particle, such as an electron, proton, or neutron, having half-integral spin and obeying statistical rules requiring that not more than one in a set of identical particles may occupy a particular quantum state.</font><br /><br /> For more information, please google Wolfgang Pauli. Brilliant man. Also , as stated earlier, read up on the death of a star.<br /><br /> <br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"<font color="#333399">An organism at war with itself is a doomed organism." - Carl Sagan</font></em> </div>