I don’t understand this “safe haven” concept.

[askold]

Griffin has also made it clear he's no fan of the ISS:<br /><br />Keith Cowing, a former NASA scientist and now editor of the NASA Watch web site says that Griffin privately refers to the ISS as an albatross. "The only reason he has to continue with it," he told The Guardian, "is that we have binding international treaty commitments with Europe and the Pacific nations."<br /><br />http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/15/iss_mars_moon/<br />

 

[mattblack]

**WARNING -- MATTBLACK SOAPBOX ALERT!!<br /><br />I know all the above: I've read those same documents. I was just being optimistic for the sake of defending a spacecraft that is not even half-built, yet is already the most advanced ever built, by an International consortium of nations for a purpose once deemed impossible.<br /><br />I.S.S. is being kept down. But it's tangled history is a mixture of bad luck, occasional bad management & design and often a complete lack of understanding of just how DIFFICULT a project like this is. It's the equivalent of the building of the Pyramids of Egypt, albeit the pyramids have had millenia of P.R. and spin behind them. And also, nobody around NOW had to pay for them in blood and treasure!!<br /><br />The International Space Station has not, IS not being 'sold' properly and it's only crime is complexity, having to weather a Space Shuttle tragedy, politicians and other pursestring holders who don't know ANYTHING about the subtleties of microgravity research or their benefits, nor about just how difficult it is to assemble a 400+plus ton spacecraft out of components and technologies from 16 nations!!<br /><br />Skylab, the Salyuts and Mir were the prototypes: this vehicle is going to be the REAL thing. YES; the design is too dependant on the Shuttle, YES it has taken too long and too much money to get finished, YES the science is subtler, maybe less exciting than studying Moon and Mars rocks. But I'd like to coin some phrases from a friend of mine who is an ISS Senior Engineer:<br /><br />Mankind has mastered fire, water, electric & nuclear energy. Mankind understands most of the forces of nature, except gravity and humanities' response to the lack of it. What is it like for an International crew (of 6) to live, work and study nearly every discipline of science in a large, well-equipped and UNIQUE spacecraft, high above the petty borders and disputes of mankind? FOR MONTHS AND YEARS AT A TIME.<br /><br />We're only just finding out <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p>One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America <strong><em><u>CAN</u></em></strong> Afford it!!  LEO is a <strong><em>Prison</em></strong> -- It's time for a <em><strong>JAILBREAK</strong></em>!!</p> </div>

 

[gofer]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>... snip... It's the equivalent of the building of the Pyramids of Egypt ... snip... <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I get what you are saying ( I think), but I sure hope the *utility* of the ISS at least marginally exceeds that of the Pyramid of Heops. What is the current utility of the Pyramid of Heops? Tourism. Well, after all the expensive stuff has been stolen by thieves and the british. Big time toursim. Wink wink, nudge nudge. Queue in Space Adventures and Mr. Musk.

 

[askold]

I never said that the ISS isn't impressive. I'm real impressed.<br /><br />I just don't think it's doing very usefull work. We have lots of satellites orbiting that study the Earth with remote sensors, etc. How much micro-gravity research can you do, anyway?

 

[j05h]

A lot of micro-G experimentation is possible, there are all sorts of research questions that can be posed. The problem is that they all require money - and the traditional (govt.) source is rapidly drying up. Microgravity's industrial potential has barely been tapped and partial-G biology research is needed for future endeavors. A lot of these things won't get answered until more people live and work, physically, in space. <br /><br />ISS has a lot of potential, I hope it is realized. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[mattblack]

What he said. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p>One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America <strong><em><u>CAN</u></em></strong> Afford it!!  LEO is a <strong><em>Prison</em></strong> -- It's time for a <em><strong>JAILBREAK</strong></em>!!</p> </div>

 

[frodo1008]

Well, mattblack's post was right on! Your objection has been noted however. The way that the ISS will fulfill its potential is for it to be FINISHED, why it doesn't seem to be doing the science that it was even originally slatted to do is simple! It isn't even finished to anywhere near what it was supposed to be! <br /><br />That means that with six active people on board (and ALL of the power and science modules present) there would then be enough people (and equipment) to really do important research. And what makes you think that just science itself is important? The major thrust of the ISS research in the future is going to be the far more useful (at least from the aspect of the true human exploration and exploitation of the almost limitless resources of the solar system) development of processes and systems to exploit the already available materials and energy of cis-lunar space! Materials and processes that will be totally VITAL to building the infrastructure that will allow mankind to truly expand into space!<br /><br />I would like to think that this is not too difficult a concept for such an intelligent person as yourself to understand! I do fully support such a NASA budget that all the very useful work of the robotic section of science exploration of NASA is currently doing. But ask yourself this: Why do we even bother to learn all that these robotic efforts can give us if humanity is not going to follow eventually?! And it will indeed take ALL of these efforts to allow humanity to expand into these regions in a useful and profitable way!<br /><br />If the ISS can help humanity do these things, then its price will have been far more than justified!!<br /><br />

 

[frodo1008]

A truly excellent and useful post! I would not add anything to it. Just take a look at my reply to askold for some of my own thoughts. <br /><br />Once again, very well said!!!

 

[mattblack]

Thanks again, frodo. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p>One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America <strong><em><u>CAN</u></em></strong> Afford it!!  LEO is a <strong><em>Prison</em></strong> -- It's time for a <em><strong>JAILBREAK</strong></em>!!</p> </div>

 

[blackened27]

It would be great if the ISS were able to be fully utilized, but i'm affraid that the political will to do so just isn't there anymore, if it ever really was in the first place. The project has been scaled back due to many factors, and it looks like for the time being, the powers that be are only making minimal use of it, primarily as a face saving measure so the money sunk into the ISS doesn't appear wasted. I'm sure valuable and legitimate science is being done even under the current conditions, but it seems unlikely that the ISS will ever reach it's full potential, until a reliable means to reach orbit is operational. <br /><br /><br /><br />

 

[nacnud]

Reliable like the Soyuz you mean?

 

[blackened27]

That's always a possibility, what i had in mind was the CEV. The problem with the ISS isn't really getting a crew up to it or returning them, the Soyuz could take care of that. For the ISS to be really worth it's weight in gold, it would need to be finished. Wether the shuttle can accomplish that task will probably determind how worthwhile the ISS really is to operate. What capabilities will exist to send up and retreive heavy or bulky items once the shuttle retires is unknown to me, but that could be a potential stumbling block. I'd like to see the ISS reach it's full potential, but the uncertainty the hangs around the shuttle makes it difficult to tell just how useful the ISS can ever become.