I thought there was no sound in space?

commander_keen · Jul 13, 2004

Recently, I was reading some news about Cassini's antenna dish being pelted by some small rocks as it crossed Saturn's thin rings. There was some sound recordings of it but unfortunately I couldnt find it anywhere on the page news (spacedaily) when I visited back.... could anyone give me a link to another site where they've heard the recordings from? Oh yeah, and I have a question. How is it that we're able to hear the dish being pelted if there's no sound in space? Could someone explain the science in that for me? Thanks <img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" />

nevers · Jul 13, 2004

If a tree falls in the woods... I don't know the technical reasons as to why you can't hear sounds in space but when two objects collide, certainly they make a sound/vibrations. Unless it's like a sponge striking a feather. Even still they probably make a sound, just not on a frequency we can hear. Unless maybe we had like "dog" ears. Wait...now that's just silly! Ok, ant ears...no...flea ears or maybe better amoeba ears! I'm sorry I can't answer your question...where the heck is Maddad? Is he still around?

tom_hobbes · Jul 13, 2004

Sound needs a medium to propogate through, there isn't enough 'medium' of any kind in space for this to occur effectively. Sound vibrations would still travel through the antenna frame and the spacecraft however, so a microphone, like those on Huygens, could perhaps pick up the vibrations through the space craft itself, if they were active. I don't imagine they'd be switched on till Huygens is on it's way down though. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I wish I could remember But my selective memory Won't let me - Mark Oliver Everett </div>

spacechump · Jul 13, 2004

What was picked up keen was the quick radio bursts that resulted from the particles disinigrating into plasma when they were hitting the dish. The radio/plasma antenna experiment picked up those blips and JPL scientists converted that data into a useful soundbyte. Nerves, when too objects hit in space shockwaves can propagate within those objects. But because there is no air or solid around the two objects, only vacuum, you don't get sound wave propagation as Tom said.

Leovinus · Jul 13, 2004

This is equivalent to seeing infra-red or ultra-violet pictures; the eye cannot see in these wavelengths. Scientists will map the wavelengths down to something between red and violet so that the photograph can be seen. For example, this UV picture of Saturn. The scientists in this case took the plasma detector and mapped its detections into the audible sound frequency so we could "hear" the impacts. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

spendabuck · Jul 13, 2004

I saw this link on nasa http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/videos/metafiles/ksc_110503_flare.ram I don't know if this would count as "sound" in space. you need realplayer to view it.

Saiph · Jul 13, 2004

saying there is No sound in space is a lie, albiet a really really small white one. there is gas in space, and sound can propagate. But very, very slowly, and very very weakly. But the sound, in this case, was using the satellites own structure as a medium. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

spacechump · Jul 13, 2004

Actually "ricimer" it had nothing to do with actual sound persay. The "sound" was the pickup of radio waves as the very small particles vaporized into plasma from impacting with the dish.

Saiph · Jul 13, 2004

:::Nod::: Noticed that right after I posted. found a clip, or rather sloracer did, and posted it over at spaceport: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/09jul_hailstorm.htm?list1160313 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

spacechump · Jul 13, 2004

Pretty harsh sounding. Makes you wonder just how much of the probe would be left if those particles were just a smidgion larger.

commander_keen · Jul 13, 2004

Wow, thanks for all the info and getting me the soundbyte. Sounds really cool to actually hear something coming out from space. I'm surprised Cassini can take so much punishment there!

spacechump · Jul 13, 2004

Just a reminder; it's not really sound you're hearing from space but a representation of another process using sound for interpretation by humans.

spacechump · Jul 13, 2004

Actually it sped up to about 54,000 mph. The process took about an hour and a half to complete its orbital insertion. Remember Satern's a large planet!

Leovinus · Jul 13, 2004

My guess is that it took seconds if that much. And it had to cross the plane twice. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

igorsboss · Jul 14, 2004

Data is silent, invisible, and utterly intangible until it is displayed. The method chosen to display data influences our ability to perceive its meaning. Some forms of data are easily perceived visually, while other forms of data are easily perceived audibly. When data has a dynamic temporal or series character, auditory display may reveal new meaning. Sonificationmaps features of a study domain onto an acoustic domain, in order to interpret, understand, or communicate features of the study domain. Audification a simple form of sonification, is a direct translation of a waveform into the audible domain for purposes of monitoring and comprehension. Audification includes infrasound, ultrasound, and non-acoustic waveforms. Sonification usually implies that there is some intermediate level of abstraction between the data source and the generated sounds. This intermediate abstraction is designed to accentuate the salient features of the study domain. The Geiger counter is a famous sonification example. An inaudible study domain (ionizing radiation) is mapped (one click per particle) to the acoustic domain. When we hear rapid clicks, we quickly perform the inverse mapping operation (radioactive) to understand the underlying reality. A Musical Sonificationis a sonification which also obeys musical rules. It is meant to convey features of the study domain while using the affective qualities of music to convey a sense of feeling about the data. (Adapted from "A Musical Sonification of Windows Performance", a term paper and technology demonstration, by igorsboss.) The Cassini team has made use of sonification twice now that I know of. The first was from the magnetometer data, and the second was the ring-crossing "hailstorm".

qzzq · Jul 18, 2004

More sonification; you can listen to the Big Bang here: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99995092 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> *** </div>

spacester · Jul 18, 2004

spacechump · Jul 18, 2004

Steve that is not true. Vibrations nor sound were picked up to make that soundbyte. It was the radio waves that plasma gave off...plasma forming from very very small impacts of dust with the antenna and ionizing them from the disintegration. Read back through this thread....the answers have already been covered.

averygoodspirit · Jul 21, 2004

Here is an interesting web site if you are interested in the sounds of space: http://www-pw.physics.uiowa.edu/~dag/sounds2.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Saiph · Jul 21, 2004

actually steve, sound is merely vibrations in a medium. Ever hear of sound being transmitted through a solid (like walls, glass, tables, railroad tracks, water, the ground). It's merely a vibration in the medium. It's a compression wave, basically a compression and relaxation cycle that has no (or little) net displacement of the medium at hand. I.e. it's not restricted to the air. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Saiph · Jul 21, 2004

there is stuff in space, the denser regions reach ~100 particles per cubic centimeter. The solar system has a density of ~1 particle per cubic centimeter. As such, sound can travel. But it attenuates very, very rapidly, and moves very, very slowly. The BB however, was very, very loud, so we might be able to pick something up. Of course, the link may be refering to evidence of sound in material much further away (like in the backround radiation) when things were much, much denser. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Saiph · Jul 22, 2004

even then you're still mistaken. The human ear was designed to pick up VIBRATIONS, it isn't medium specific. Heck, it actually works better underwater than in air (because sound travels better). You can put your ear to the ground, and hear sound. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Saiph · Jul 22, 2004

The same funnelling effect works for liquids. It can detect vibrations in all solids. The funnelling would work for solids, if the medium wasn't quite so rigid. I will grant that the ear has been optimized for air (in some animals). But that's primarily in the external section. Look at the ear structure for mammals in the water, (you know, things that actually have "ears). You'll find they operate under the same principles, and provide a better instrument for sound in water than what fish use (their bodies). Enough so that most mammals still use sound underwater. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Saiph · Jul 22, 2004

and sound isn't biological, it's a physical process. Sound is a wave, in a medium. It can pass between different mediums, gas, liquid and solid. The method of the waves motion remains the same, though there is refraction, diffraction, and reflection. The speeds also change depending on the medium. HOWEVER, it is still sound, the same sort of vibration that the ear is designed to pick up, regardless of the medium. The biology is how an organism has adapted to use this particular stimulus. And if you start going into bugs, most don't have the ear you described. They pick things up in a similar, fashion at times, or they pick it up through the ground (scorpions). Heck, your brain can't even tell the difference. If I stick you in a pool and yell into the water, you'll hear "sound" just as if I did it in the air. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

spacechump · Jul 22, 2004

steve....*rubs temple*.... And I quote from space.com article: "Most of the dust hit the spacecraft's high-gain antenna, which was designed to handle such impacts. No apparent damage was done. Each impacting particle generated a puff of superheated, ionized gas called plasma. Cassini's Radio and Plasma Wave Science (RPWS) instrument recorded the puffs. "We converted these into audible sounds that resemble hail hitting a tin roof," said Gurnett, who is the instrument's principal investigator." I wasn't lying or making anything up or assuming ANYTHING. This is HOW they made the sound byte. When plasma is made (in this case from a hypervelocity impact) it releases radio waves...hence the use of the RPWS. The amount of plasma produced would be small given the size of the material impacting. It goes to show you the sensitivity of the instrument. Not really. If it was EM emissions picked up, then the source of those EM emissions would then be the event to study. Frankly, I don't think we know for sure where those EM emissions came from. Maybe when we get out there or send out more sophistitcated instruments.... Covered above..plasma releases radio waves. And it correlated with the orbital maneuver through the rings. The instrument is sophistitcated enough. There could be other phenomena which create EM waves, such piezoelectrical effects from the pressure of the particle impacts, as well. Only if the material used was sensitive to piezoelectric effects. I'm pretty sure Cassini doesn't cover this base. Remember these were tiny impacts. If any of the particles were charged with respect to the antenna, that could give off a spark and an EM wave. Now you're the one speculating as we don't know if they were charged or not....just that they were around the size of smoke particles. It would have to be quite a buildup of charge to spark

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