Lets move to Mars

nikolaus008 · Jan 24, 2007

What if Mars had a stabilizing moon? Would a stable axis on Mars promote life? Could we built a space station that was so massive and large to act like a stablilizing moon? I say, "Let's move to Mars." If we can stabilize the planet to create seasons, then we can move life from the Earth to seed Mars and make it a livable planet, right?

rfoshaug · Jan 24, 2007

Welcome to SpaceDotCom! It's a neat idea. The problem is that even the smallest of the natural satellites of mars, Deimos, has a mass of 2.244×10^15 kg (according to the Wikipedia article on Deimos). That's 2,244,000,000,000 metric tonnes. The heaviest object mankind has ever moved in space is the combined vehicles of the Space Shuttle and ISS, weighing only a few hundred metric tonnes. In the future we might be able (using nuclear propulsion and stuff like that) to maneuver objects of several thousand tonnes. But to move a Deimos-sized object of two trillion tonnes? I can't really see how that would ever be possible. And Deimos is of course not big enough, as it and Phobos haven't been able to stabilize Mars' axial tilt. So it's not simply just "grabbing a moon-sized object and moving it" I'm afraid. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ----------------------------------My minds have many opinions </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 24, 2007

Welcome to SDC. The largest impediment to surface life on Mars is the extremely thin atmosphere, caused by it's very small gravity (only 38% as large as earth), the fact that Mars has no magnetic field to speak of, and tectonic activity appears to have ended, or become so infrequent that the atmosphere is not replentished. What atmosphere there is, is primarily carbon dioxide, not good for us <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Even if you could move a moon there to stabilize Mars' obliquity (the tilt of it's axis) that would not affect the atmosphere. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

why06 · Jan 24, 2007

too true, Mars atomosphere is simply to thin to hold in heat effectively. I forget why that is... Could some one refresh my memory. I think it was the magnetic field. The gravity or something... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ </div><div><ul><li>your move...</li></ul></div> </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jan 24, 2007

"Mars atomosphere is simply to thin to hold in heat effectively. I forget why that is... Could some one refresh my memory. I think it was the magnetic field. The gravity or something..." For starters there are the 2 factors MW mentioned above. Mar's low gravity means it's easier for the atmosphere to escape the planet's "grip". On top of that you have the solar wind, particles emitted from the Sun, constantly hitting the planet and atmosphere. On Earth the SW is deflected by our magnetic feild. Mars, even though more distant and thus experiencing a diminished (re:Earth) SW, lacks our strong magnetic field. So the SW hits the atmosphere and "boils" it away, albeit pretty slowly. Lastly Mars is cold. So cold at times that the CO2 in the atmosphere can freeze out. If it's lying on the ground, it can't be contributing to atmospheric density. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

bdewoody · Jan 24, 2007

It must have more to do with solar wind than gravity. As I recall Saturn's moon Titan has a denser atmosphere than Mars. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Bob DeWoody </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 24, 2007

I would think that Titan lies within Saturn's magnetosheath, so solar wind isn't much of a factor there. I'll have to verify that to be sure, though. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

why06 · Jan 24, 2007

But what about volcanoes.. Is Mars core really Solid. Where are the geysers if water is hidden underground. Is this perhaps why mar's Magnetosphere is so weak? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ </div><div><ul><li>your move...</li></ul></div> </div>

3488 · Jan 24, 2007

Hi there. Titan is sometimes both outside (day side of Saturn) & inside the magnetosheath (night side of Saturn) of Saturn. Titan HAS lost most of its original atmosphere, thought to be roughly six times denser than it has now. However the average temps on Titan are minus 180 Celsius, on Mars average minus 63 Celsius (although Mars see greater temperature variations than Titan). Mercury's surface gravity is 38% of Earth. Venus's surface gravity is 93% Earth. Mars's surface gravity is 38% of Earth. Io's surface gravity is 18.4% of Earth. Titan's surface gravity is 14% of Earth. Triton's surface gravity is 7.6% of Earth. Pluto's surface gravity is 6% of Earth. Our Moon's is 16.7% of Earth. All have very different G's, but also their atmospheric denities do not follow suit. Titan's atmosphere must be being replenished. Mars is losing its atmosphere, eventually once the polar caps are gone & the sun continues to brighten, the atmosphere will go too (unless the volcanoes are still active of course). Replenishment, composition & temperature appear to be the key here. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 24, 2007

Yes, Mars is basically tectonically dead (I hope Jon Clarke will correct me if I'm wrong). So if the core is not solid, at least the mantle is, and vulcanism on Mars has ceased. I do not know when the last eruption on Mars was, but it was millions of years ago AFAIK. Since there is no liquid core, there is no dynamo, hence no magnetosphere. There is no evidence of "geysers" in the eartlhy sense; there is some for CO2 sublimation causing geysers through the surface ices. That takes place at such a low temperature and pressure that it's not relevant to surface life. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

why06 · Jan 24, 2007

why did Mars cool down so much faster than earth? will the same thing happen to earth as mars eventually? And what does "AFAIK" mean <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ </div><div><ul><li>your move...</li></ul></div> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 24, 2007

Mars is much smaller. It is only 1/10th the mass of the earth. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 24, 2007

Yes the same will happen to earth eventually. AFAIK means As Far As I Know <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

kdavis007 · Jan 28, 2007

I agree lets go.. Marsward Ho!!!!

l3p3r · Jan 29, 2007

Through your site I found the link to 'The Mars Underground'. I read Zubrin's book The Case for Mars last year, and it was very inspirational stuff! Didn't realise there was a movie... cheers! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

5billionyearslater · Jan 29, 2007

Actually, Mars will probably offer temporary accomodation when the Sun turns into a Red Giant. Mars' polar ice caps will melt and make oceans, the sun will provide enough warmth for us, and an atmosphere will form due to convection, thus weather systems follow suit. Thats the general theory anyway, it is believed that Mars could be habitibal for about 1 million years, after which even Mars will become unbearably hot for us.

kyle_baron · Jan 29, 2007

Actually, Mars will probably offer temporary accomodation when the Sun turns into a Red Giant. Not exactly. When the sun becomes a red giant, it will lose mass, and all the planets will migrate outwards from their present locations. I read in "Back to the Astronomy Cafe" that the earth will be in Mars present day orbit, when the sun becomes a red giant. Mars will be 1/2 way to Jupiter from it's present location by then. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

robnissen · Jan 29, 2007

It is currently unknown whether the Sun will lose enough mass by the time it expands to Earth's current orbit for the Earth to avoid being swallowed by the sun. It appears to be a very close contest right now. But whether Earth is swallowed by the Sun or not, it will become uninhabitable millions or billions of years before the Sun's red-giant phase. If humans are going to survive long-term, at some point we will need to get off this planet.

kyle_baron · Jan 29, 2007

It is currently unknown whether the Sun will lose enough mass by the time it expands to Earth's current orbit for the Earth to avoid being swallowed by the sun. It appears to be a very close contest right now. I'll agree it's a contest. From a Sky & Telescope article October 2002, The Fate of the Earth: Durring the next 1 billion years CO2 will actually DECREASE, killing all plant life on the planet. The reason is that the sun will get hotter, heating the planet, and the surface rocks will weather faster. Then the CO2 will bond more readily with the sediments (dirt) removed from the atmosphere. Then after the 1st billion years, the sun will be hot enough to melt the polar caps, and begin evaporating the oceans, turning the Earth into a Venus type planet. Then from 12.10-12.365 billion years the sun reaches the 1st red giant phase in which it looses mass, all the planets begin moving outward, but Mercury and Venus are consumed. From the graph, the earth is at the edge of the suns diameter, and appears to escape from being consumed. However, at this stage, it would be "molten, from surface to core". Shortly thereafter, Helium flashes occur, and the sun becomes a white dwarf. I've sited two references that claim that the earth will not be consumed by the sun. I haven't seen anything else to the contrary. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

robnissen · Jan 29, 2007

I've sited two references that claim that the earth will not be consumed by the sun. I haven't seen anything else to the contrary. A quick search of the internet will bring up thousands to the contrary. Here is one from SDC. "Earth will end up in the sun, vaporizing and blending its material with that of the sun," said Iowa State University's Lee Anne Willson. "That part of the sun then blows away into space, so one might say Earth is cremated and the ashes are scattered into interstellar space." But this article does concede that there is a chance the earth will escape this fate: "If the sun loses mass before it gets too big, then Earth moves into a larger orbit and escapes," Willson told SPACE.com. "The sun would need to lose 20 percent of its mass earlier in its evolution, and this is not what we expect to happen." http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/death_of_earth_000224.html BTW, your statement here is flat wrong: Then from 12.10-12.365 billion years the sun reaches the 1st red giant phase The sun will reach red giant stage in at most 7 billion years, most put it closer to 5 billion.

MeteorWayne · Jan 30, 2007

Maybe that 12.1 billion was in years of existance, not years from now? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

kyle_baron · Jan 30, 2007

Exactly. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

kyle_baron · Jan 30, 2007

"If the sun loses mass before it gets too big, then Earth moves into a larger orbit and escapes," Willson told SPACE.com. "The sun would need to lose 20 percent of its mass earlier in its evolution, and this is not what we expect to happen." From the Astronomy Cafe p.71"As the sun evolves into a red giant it grows to a size 150x it's current extent and loses 27% of it's mass and incinerating Mercury. Then it experiences 4 thermal pulses. After the 1st one it grows to 213x it's present size with a mass of only 60% of it's current mass." Apparently," Venus migrates out 1.22x farther from the sun than earth is now. Earth will have moved to where Mars is today, so neither planet will be engulfed by the sun." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Lets move to Mars

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