Mars Settlement Financing

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arobie

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Space Sources.<br /><br />Our, well I should say...A third source of mula. (Not sure if this is your third stool leg or not)<br /><br />There are two sources of money out there for PSA that I know of, our own Luna in orbit around us and the Asteroids. The latter stands as our source in the future, the source to pay off all...when we get there. Now the former of those two, the Moon, is where we can make some money soon, even while establishing our Mars Settlement. (I think) We plan on moving along our moon operations at the same time as our Mars ops.<br /><br />Now what sort of sources of cash can we find on the Moon?<br /><br />Well maybe I should not say find, we may also create our own sources there. We plan on offering a chance to win something as an incentive for investing in us. How about a trip to the moon? We could send our winner(s) on a one week (or however long) paid-for stay on the moon.<br /><br />Such a trip would be symbolic to show that we are moving along, it won't be years long(like a Mars trip), and it will be to a place easily visible in the sky. People could look up and say,"Wow, Joe Moonwalk got to go there. I'de love to win that trip." That would definitely help gain more investors working towards filling in our 39 million people goal. The moon could become a symbol of our program and progress, the greatest marketing technique ever.<br /><br />We could also sell (only to investors) trips to the moon. A tourism kind of thing. We could build one of those big domes that have been planned for decades up on the moon for recreation: flying around, sports(golf taking after Alan Sheperd), or whatever games are invented for play on the moon(Maybe by kids in school). Now, would moon tourism be profitable?<br /><br />How about exporting Helium 3 to eager scientists here on Earth? What sort of price could we fetch for say 10 kilograms of helium 3? If profitable, this would also make us look good, I mean we would be helping the world towards having fusion as our energy s
 
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quasar2

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thiis for everyone. i know this might sound nit picky & it`s nothing on the way i actually feel about. but i`m wondering the name people`s wouldn`t sound too much like communism? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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grooble

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There are millions of normal folks i think that would like to help nasa, by volunteering and donating. But NASA won't go for it.<br /><br />Also, does anyone think that NASA has been scammed by the aerospace companies, with the space shuttle launch costs? <br /><br />
 
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arkady

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Hi there <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I didn't imagine that I'd be trying to contribute to this thread, but you guys actually got me thinking. Now forgive me if I repeat many points thats allready been made, its just my way of saying that I think you're on the right track. I think some key points have been made, and I'd like to emphasize these since I feel that they're absolutely crucial if this project is ever to be realized.<br /><br />I'm one of your Joe's. I'm 31 years of age and live in Denmark. I don't make a lot of money and I have no connection to science or space exploration besides my interest therein. I must admit I was somewhat sceptic reading this thread for the first time. A $50 billion fundraiser seemed a bit optimistic to me. As the weeks went by however I couldn't help but speculate on the matter trying to come up with alternatives. <br /><br />Seems to me there are four possible structures that would support a Mars settlement mission, namely<br /><br />1) Government based scenario. <br />2) International based scenario.<br />3) Corporate based scenario. <br />4) Organizational/private based scenario.<br /><br />Now there is obvious drawbacks with either scenario, many of which have been presented numerously in this thread and these boards in general. <br /><br />Government and International projects seem to suffer from many of the same issues. "Too many chefs spoil the food syndrome". Bureacracy and inefficiency. All of which will greatly affect the costs and timeframe involved. This also means that Joe Taxpayer gets the check, which to me seems a bit unfair since we cannot allow ourselves to force this project upon people not sympathizing with the idea.<br /><br />A corporate mission would require the project to generate profit. As of now it is simply too early or too complicated to speculate whether such an undertaking as this would generate any kind of revenue within a reasonable timeframe. The potential is huge, but I suspect it will take an <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "<font color="#0000ff"><em>The choice is the Universe, or nothing</em> ... </font>" - H.G Wells </div>
 
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grooble

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Great post. I agree with most of what you said. I am in the UK and would like it to be an international effort, but American leadership is fine. <br /><br />I'd take a crash course in how not to do things, like TrekUnited. Contribution based. <br /><br />They assumed that as there were millions of star trek fans, they'd be able to raise $35m easily. <br /><br />Well only 8,000 of those millions donated, to the tune of $125,000.<br /><br />They made a big mistake, they became almost cult like in behaviour, they banned and cut off all questioners and critics from their message boards. <br /><br />So my advice is, embrace the critics, don't alienate people who don't agree with the plan or condemn people who do not donate as somehow subhuman or visionless, and don't dish out silly self important titles to your volunteers <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" />. Outsiders arn't fooled by that nonsense, only the people within the group structure.<br /><br />But you guys are smarter than that anyway.<br /><br />How about this for a test of the plan?<br /><br />Try to get 80% of the regular posters here to post in this thread, their views, thoughts. I mean this is space.com, if these guys ain't interested, who will be?<br /><br />I wonder if just the 100 or so regs here could rally together. <br /><br />Also, anyone want to comment on The Mars Society?
 
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spacester

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Great post, Arkady. It's nice to read my own thoughts in other's words. Maybe I'm not a complete nut after all.<br /><br />I wrote the following up over the weekend, I only have time to post it and run. No time to respond to other posts til tomorrow. But it represents the last major part of the outline of my plan, so I want to get it out there for folks to think about so we can keep moving forward. <br /><br />As to the folks on this site, I plan to start a poll in order to understand the reactions (and lack of reactions) of folks who seemingly would readily support a plan that meets the criteria we've talked about (credibility, credibility, credibility).<br /><br />***<br /><br /><b>The third leg of the stool. </b><br /><br />The three cost centers are Hardware, Transportation and Operations. The 39 Million cover the first one and the Affiliates cover the second. Operations needs its own ongoing source of funding.<br /><br />This has been the hardest part to come up with. The overarching concept is that we’re gonna get support from 1) A collection of individuals we put together. 2) A collection of existing organizations that would mutually benefit from working with us. 3) Revenue streams created by our activity.<br /><br />The 39 Million is the mechanism to implement number 1 and the Affiliates program answers number 2. I don’t have number three completely figured out yet. Getting a little stuck at number three is what caused me to finally start downloading my ideas to sdc.<br /><br />The conundrum is that the SEC will only allow us to do certain things and still stay non-profit, but what I want to do is have a branch of the PSA be for-profit. Obviously, the profit-making part would be legally separate but channeling profits to PSA from private companies is against the rules I think. The bottom line is that we’ll have to spend the initial funds on lawyers to get the whole thing set up squeaky clean.<br /><br />What we want to do is invest PSA funds in companies that we want to work <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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grooble

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The mars society estimate their mission cost at $30b, $20b less than spacesters. <br /><br />They've been around for years now but how many millions of donaters do they have?<br /><br />I'd love to see this PSA speed past the mars society in its first year <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" />
 
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grooble

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Spacester, are you aware of New Mars forums?<br /><br />http://www.newmars.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi<br /><br />A lot of people there would be interested in discussing your ideas i think. <br /><br />Also, as a thank you, you could offer the donaters a sort of immortality in the form of a Mars Obelisk, the first Wonder of Mars.<br /><br />It would contain the names of everyone, millions of them, who donated and made it happen. But that is not all.<br /><br />Every person could have a video & audio recording, they could put up their life history, their reasons for believing in the project, their wishes for the future etc.<br /><br />Eventually, after decades, even centuries, when there are 100,000s or millions of martians, they could view recordings on the obelisk via a martian internet which would be hooked into the obelisk. <br /><br />So in the centuries to come, they could look back and see how it all came about, and admire and remember those who made it happen, the normal people, their ancestors, the ones with the dream and the vision.<br /><br />I think it would be a nice tribute.<br /><br />It could be a way to actively involve people, offer them say 1 - 10 gigabytes of data allowance. They can create videos of their favourite places, read from books, teach lessons, discuss philosophy, science.<br /><br />
 
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arkady

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>In contribution to the discussion, I do not feel that the US should aid in the "internationalization" of space but should instead should dominate space and behave as a medium through which other states are allowed access and police it with something similar to 'immigration controls' that would prohibit access to non-US allies that might use space as a staging area for attacking US & our allies.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Thats about the worst pile of crap I've yet to read on these boards!!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "<font color="#0000ff"><em>The choice is the Universe, or nothing</em> ... </font>" - H.G Wells </div>
 
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ldyaidan

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I like the Obelisk/monument idea. That's like the engraved brick idea. Whether we build a big monument, or build something with the bricks, it gives people a personal sense of participation, and set the groundwork for future tourism. I can see children 50 years from now, standing wide eyed as they see grandpa's name as one of the "builders" of the Mars colony...<br /><br />As for the Mars society...I haven't checked their stuff in ages. Are they actually making progress towards their goal? I know there are a lot of groups with great intentions, but they tend to spin their wheels and do a lot of "what if..." but no real action. Perhaps instead of starting from scratch, we should see what they have on the boards...
 
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tap_sa

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<font color="yellow">"In contribution to the discussion, I do not feel that the US should aid in the "internationalization" of space but should instead should dominate space and behave as a medium through which other states are allowed access and police it with something similar to 'immigration controls' that would prohibit access to non-US allies that might use space as a staging area for attacking US & our allies."</font><br /><br />Great idea, now you should talk to the Russians and PRC about contracting them to haul the US space immigration dominatrix-polices to LEO since US manned space capabilities are not at very dominant state right now <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" />
 
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north_star_rising

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spacester, grooble, and Others,<br /><br />This "COPY" of a recent round of emails, which I received a CC: attachment of, I think brings to the FOREFRONT the "real issues" and "problems" that faces any Present or Proposed Space Effort Of Scale, like Mars & Luna Efforts & Exploration; and addresses the Problem of Funding and Undertaking such Endeavors!<br /><br />It cuts through all the diversionary tactics, misinformation, and propaganda of this issue; gets right to the very core of this problem; and why such an effort has not been realized since the Apollo Days, and the 1960's and 1970's, from which we have had the ability to do such things!<br /><br />It is worth a good read, and if you take the time to really analyze what was said, by both parties, you will see the "Importance" of this exchange in communications, and from this insight, a solution must be found to bridge the interests, agendas, and goals of the Nationalists, Profiteers, Academics, and Space Activists; in both the Government and Private Sectors!<br /><br />I hope the diatrobes can stay silent just long enough for this to issue be addressed with out rhetoric, diversionary tactics, misinformation, and propaganda being brought to bare on this point!<br /><br />I think if the daitrobes can keep the flapper shut just long enough to see the value of this information, maybe a mutually beneficial solution can be found, to at least appease all sides concerned in this matter and issue.<br /><br />This issue has become so polarized and full of secrete agendas; that any and all focus and ability to even converse in any respectful, meaningful, or beneficial way has been lost! It has become an all out, everyone for themselves situation, and in so doing everyone is suffering and losing!<br /><br />In this Hostile Environment, Human Space Endeavors of Any Scale or Duration; WILL NEVER HAPPEN!<br /><br />nrs “North_Star_Rising”<br /><br />PLEASE SEE COPY OF THE BELOW COMMUNICATIONS! THANKS!<br /><br /><br />******************
 
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spacester

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That's a pretty long post that says little more than "Oh, Boo-Hoo, no one wants to do it our way, they all want to do it their way and if only we could get everyone to see that our way is the ONLY way, we'd all get what we want."<br /><br />Who exactly told you to pack sand? What happened before they said that? How tolerant were you of their point of view before you decided thay weren't tolerant of yours?<br /><br />north_star, your language is too strident. Your zeal is eclipsing your appeal.<br /><br />Inclusiveness does not mean, should not mean, cannot mean "I'm right, you're wrong, shut up and listen!"<br /><br />For me, inclusiveness means that I cannot say things like "stupid worthless wars". I may personally think that US in Irag is stupid and less than worthless, but it has been shown that many of my fellow Americans think that it is a good and necessary thing. So if I want to include those folks in my Space Plan, I just can't spout rhetoric like that. More than that, I need to figure out how I can appeal to folks of all political stripes. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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north_star_rising

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Sorry to say, International Space Agency (ISA) has been Inclusive, and has always been open to a wide range of ideas and proposals!<br /><br />If an idea is good and has merit, ISA will always support it.<br /><br />It is those who are focused on the Exclusive mind set, and it is that they have a problem with ISA, not the other way around, and have ruthlessly attacked ISA; as they see ISA as either a threat to their dominance and control, or a threat to a monolithic self-view of human space efforts, mostly from Nationalist View Point.<br /><br />Another reason for these attacks, and is more about education and understanding, is that many people think we are part of the United Nations "Which We Are Not!", and/or that we are proposing some big bureaucratic World Space Agency "Which We Are Not!".<br /><br />The International Space Agency would be the bigger cousin to the European Space Agency (ESA) which is a Regional Space Agency.<br />http://www.international-space-agency.org<br /><br />The International Space Agency (ISA) would operate all of its technology programs in an Airbus Based Management Model, and would be Launch For Hire Resources.<br />http://www.international-spaceplane-program.org<br /><br />
 
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spacester

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Ruthless attacks? Please describe. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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north_star_rising

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I would love nothing more, than to tell all!?<br /><br />However, not worth crying over spilled milk anyway!<br /><br />Besides if I where to do this, it would just be erased!<br /><br />In any case, those who have done this have failed in their efforts, and have only served to bring more attention and support to the International Space Agency (ISA), in doing so.<br /><br />In the last few years ISA has been growing and maturing very rapidly, and just within the last day, May 10th, 2005 the First Government Officially Recognized and Joined the International Space Agency, and NASA is also taking Positive Notice of the International Space Agency (ISA) as well!<br /><br />I think in the next year you will be hearing a whole lot about the International Space Agency in the Media! ;-)<br />
 
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spacester

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OK, so if you can't talk about it, don't talk about it. It seems like you have a persecution complex or something and it's very distracting.<br /><br />If you're inclusive, then accommodating my viewpoints might prove a difficult test. My entire impression from the ISA websites is that it's all about process and the public outreach seems heavy on confrontation. I'm a results-driven guy, and the folks who worry overmuch about process don't tend to deliver results IME. Since I don't want to criticize ISA and I don't see a lot that appeals to me, I'm left with little to say.<br /><br />Keep up the good work, though!<br /><br />BTW, what is it that ISA plans to do in terms of space deployed hardware? All I see are organizational charts. :)<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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ldyaidan

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If the plans for t/space prove to be workable, how would this affect our price for the mission? If they have the ships, both the cxv (to get us to orbit) and the cev (in orbit) to take us on to Mars, so that we don't have to deal with the whole "building of the ship" thing, it may reduce our cost estimates. It would probably be much cheaper to rent a ride than to have to build our own. They do seem to have the best idea/plan that I've seen so far. <br /><br />Rae
 
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north_star_rising

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spacester: "BTW, what is it that ISA plans to do in terms of space deployed hardware? All I see are organizational charts. :) "<br /><br />spacester,<br /><br />The focus and goal of the International Space Agency is "NOT" to reinvent the wheel, duplicate already existing efforts, or to directly manufacture or build technology or space vehicles.<br /><br />America, Russia, Europe, Japan, India, Ect. all have very in-depth programs to develop RLV/SSTO space vehicles and space planes, and have National Space Agencies (Like NASA) and Large Private Sector Companies (Like Boeing). The International Space Agency would only act as the enabler organization to allow these efforts to be combined in an Airbus like Management Model, and would insure Standards & Training, and would Manage & Operate these Technologies, Systems, and Vehicles once they are Developed & Constructed.<br /><br />The International Space Agency would only act as a Core Management Group, and Formal Bridge between National Space Agencies, and Private Sector Organizations, on Large Space Ventures, like a International Advanced Global Earth Orbital Launch Infrastructure & Vehicles; International Advanced Earth Orbital Infrastructure & Resources; International Luna Base & Exploration; International Mars Base & Exploration; and Large International Solar System and Extra-Solar System Programs & Exploration.<br />
 
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spacester

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Hi Rae,<br /><br />Well, I was figuring on commercial ("tourist") flights to get our folks to LEO anyway, so CXV is right in line with the Settlement plan.<br /><br />Settling on the scale and schedule I propose is going to take much more cargo than anything NASA is going to come up with. I don't see anything in the t/space architecture to provide that capability. But I'm not tracking the MTM development neartly as closely as I would like to, so, would be happy to be corrected on that conclusion.<br /><br />I don't see the CEV as being the base design for taking people to Mars. Not only would the crew of 28 be off the table, but we're talking a six-month voyage and I just dont see cramped quarters as being an option.<br /><br />If we could rent a ride, that would be fantastic and in alignment with the rest of the Settlement Strategy. But at this point in time IMO we have to assume we're buiding our own ship to our own specs. <br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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R1

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which organizations take tax deductible contributions for specific projects like martian settlement? Does NASA take tax deductible contributions? and can they do that for specific projects like Hubble, Mars settlement, etc? I don't really<br />think a wealthy billionare would NOT want to pay you a few billion to have you <br />build him or her the first martian round trip vessel and bring back soil, polar ice, and air samples,Does anyone have quoted statements from the wealthy? <br />The IRS tax form said at the top something like: do you wish 1 of your<br />dollars to go to the election campaign? Why can't we have it changed to<br />something like: would you like $10 of your tax money to go to the lunar-martian mandate? I understand you don't want NASA involved because of something<br />like they don't get things done, but we're running a little late for that, NASA<br />will as of now get the lunar-mandate done, and all anyone can do now is basically help, should they use the cxv space taxi? etc. It might be harder now<br />for different organizations each trying to come up with enough billions over many years to barely compare what NASA gets each year.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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quasar2

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i think i`ve found an excellent fundraiser. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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arobie

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Sorry, it's been half a month since your post.<br /><br />Explanation? What is the fundraiser?
 
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