Mathematician History Question

[bdaunno]

<p>Real quick -- which mathematician predicted that if we knew the location of every particle and its momentum in the universe, we could predict history for all to come? Archimedes? Descartes? I forget.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>-and please no lectures on the uncertainty principal, i know all about it </p>

 

[BoJangles]

<p><span><font face="Calibri" size="3">What you&rsquo;re talking about is an <edit> determinate </edit> system;&nbsp;a lot of people have made quotes to this affect. However in this case you maybe&nbsp;describing the famous quote by <span>Pierre-Simon Laplace,&nbsp;and known as &ldquo;<span>Laplace's demon&rdquo;; <span style="font-size:11pt;line-height:115%;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif'">such that if&nbsp;one knew the precise location and momentum of every atom in the universe then&nbsp;one could use Newton's laws to reveal the entire course of cosmic events, past and future</span></span></span></font></span></p><p><span></span></p><p><span><font face="Calibri" size="3"><ul><li><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-right:0cm"><em><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:115%">We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.</span></em></div></li></ul></font></span></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#808080">-------------- </font></p><p align="center"><font size="1" color="#808080"><em>Let me start out with the standard disclaimer ... I am an idiot, I know almost nothing, I haven’t taken calculus, I don’t work for NASA, and I am one-quarter Bulgarian sheep dog.  With that out of the way, I have several stupid questions... </em></font></p><p align="center"><font size="1" color="#808080"><em>*** A few months blogging can save a few hours in research ***</em></font></p> </div>

 

[bdaunno]

<div class="Messages_MessageBody">Hey thanks for the help. One other physicist history question - who was it that first predicted all events have a mathematical explanation? I'm pretty sure it was considerably earlier than LaPlace. </div>

 

[BoJangles]

<p>This seems like a variation of the first question. though i cant help you out here, as once again many people have made a similar quote. You are probably going back to newton or even before. Though anything before newton seems like a wild&nbsp;guess if you ask me. I.e newton had filled in a lot of the unknowns with his laws, and therefore probably one the first ones to have a reliable&nbsp;postulation of this sort.</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#808080">-------------- </font></p><p align="center"><font size="1" color="#808080"><em>Let me start out with the standard disclaimer ... I am an idiot, I know almost nothing, I haven’t taken calculus, I don’t work for NASA, and I am one-quarter Bulgarian sheep dog.  With that out of the way, I have several stupid questions... </em></font></p><p align="center"><font size="1" color="#808080"><em>*** A few months blogging can save a few hours in research ***</em></font></p> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>What you&rsquo;re talking about is an indeterminate system;<br /> Posted by BoJangles</DIV></p><p>It's actually a determinate system.&nbsp; Surely just a typo . </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hey thanks for the help. One other physicist history question - who was it that first predicted all events have a mathematical explanation? I'm pretty sure it was considerably earlier than LaPlace. <br /> Posted by bdaunno</DIV></p><p>Not really sure there is one.&nbsp; The greeks of antiquity were some of the earliest 'determinists'.&nbsp; However, their strength in mathematics in trying to define all that was observed was lacking.&nbsp; They tended to rely more on logic and analytics.&nbsp; Their search for the fundamental elements to define all that was known is probably the earliest example of what you are looking for. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[BoJangles]

Oops <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#808080">-------------- </font></p><p align="center"><font size="1" color="#808080"><em>Let me start out with the standard disclaimer ... I am an idiot, I know almost nothing, I haven’t taken calculus, I don’t work for NASA, and I am one-quarter Bulgarian sheep dog.  With that out of the way, I have several stupid questions... </em></font></p><p align="center"><font size="1" color="#808080"><em>*** A few months blogging can save a few hours in research ***</em></font></p> </div>

 

[BoJangles]

Oh and welcome back, its been quiet with out yours and drRockets regular input <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#808080">-------------- </font></p><p align="center"><font size="1" color="#808080"><em>Let me start out with the standard disclaimer ... I am an idiot, I know almost nothing, I haven’t taken calculus, I don’t work for NASA, and I am one-quarter Bulgarian sheep dog.  With that out of the way, I have several stupid questions... </em></font></p><p align="center"><font size="1" color="#808080"><em>*** A few months blogging can save a few hours in research ***</em></font></p> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Oh and welcome back, its been quiet with out yours and drRockets regular input <br /> Posted by BoJangles</DIV></p><p>Haven't really gone anywhere, just been rather busy lately.&nbsp; Life's thrown a few curveballs my direction and I'm more than eager to grab them. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Real quick -- which mathematician predicted that if we knew the location of every particle and its momentum in the universe, we could predict history for all to come? Archimedes? Descartes? I forget.&nbsp;-and please no lectures on the uncertainty principal, i know all about it <br />Posted by bdaunno</DIV></p><p>The statement to which you refer was made by LaPlace.&nbsp; It is based on deterministic Newtonian mechanics.</p><p>If the idea were true you could also predict the past with equal certainty.</p><p>The kicker is, of course, that you need perfect knowledge of the position and velocity of&nbsp;every particle in the universe at some single point in time.</p><p>While Newtonian mechanics, played out on the state of Euclidean 3-space would in theory permit such a thing, it come a cropper against the modern theories of quantum mechanics and&nbsp;relativity.&nbsp; Quantum mechanics allows only the predictin of probabilities, and relativity makes the simulaneous measurement of the necessary states impossible.&nbsp; <br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[kg]

Does this relate to a earlyer post? I seem to remember a lecture about how storing all the information of a given volume to the point where you could predict the future and past of it's contents would require concentration of information/enery/mass that the volume would colapse into a black hole making the information irretrievable.

Hey, this new forum board is definatley NOT blacksmith friendly! Where's the spell check? I'm incohearent enough when I use the spell check!