Methane plumes from Nili Fossae

JonClarke · Oct 22, 2008

Things have been quiet on the Mars methane front for some time, but there was this teaser in Nature news today.http://www.nature.com/news/2008/081021/full/4551018a.html?s=news_rss  Nili Fossae is a medium-ranked MSL site, maybe this discovery will move it up a few notches.  It is also an ExoMars site as well, so there are two chances in the next 8 years of sending a rover there.The geology of Nili Fossae is consistent with both a hydrothermal and a sedimentary origin for the methane.    There are thick volcanics from Nili Patera to the SW, and there are also sediments.  Both are cut by fault systems that could allow subsurface gases to eascape to the surface and act as pathways for hydrothermal fluids.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

silylene old · Oct 22, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Things have been quite on the Mars methane front for some time, but there was this teaser in Nature news today.http://www.nature.com/news/2008/081021/full/4551018a.html?s=news_rss Nili Fossae is a medium-ranked MSL site, maybe this discovery will move it up a few notches.  It is also an ExoMars site as well, so there are two chances in the next 8 years of sending a rover there.The geology of Nili Fossae is consistent with both a hydrothermal and a sedimentary origin for the methane.    There are thick volcanics from Nili Patera to the SW, and there are also sediments.  Both are cut by fault systems that could allow subsurface gases to eascape to the surface and act as pathways for hydrothermal fluids.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV> I read the blurb in the Nature article.As you may recall, I had previously posted a few yrs ago on the (now obliterated) SDC-Uplink, and also UMSF forums my alternative hypothesis for methane formation, based on photochemical reduction of CO2 with H2O or H2  over a metal oxide catalyst to form CH4.  High energy UV radiation is required  (and possible, since Mars lack sufficient atmospheric ozone).  The metal oxide catalysts are simply dusts which contain ZrO2, or TiO2, or WO3, etc.So my question is, do we know what kind of dusts are on the surface of Nili Fossae?   Is it possible that the methane releases have an alternative mechanism than a release from surface fissures?  I was considering that it is possible that Martian dust devils could bring a large local concentration of metal oxide dusts into the air, and that this would facilitate the photochemical reduction reactions, and this would then give a temporary spike in the production of methane.Perhaps one day we will all find out if we can land a rover there.cheers!  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

JonClarke · Oct 22, 2008

Well, the surface dust is mostly homogenous in composition over Mars because of wind action.  The soil is, as Phoenix showed, rather more variable.One thing worth considering is that Nili Fossae lies with Sytris Major, one of the darkest (i.e. most dust free) areas of Mars.  It was the recognisable first surface feature observed on Mars as a result, in 1659 by Huygens.Does your mechanism work better on fresh or weathered material, coarse or fine grained?Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Oct 22, 2008

Isn't Methane a by product of the breakdown of Olivine, through hydrothermal activities?This area appears perfect?Would be a great landing site.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Oct 22, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Isn't Methane a by product of the breakdown of Olivine, through hydrothermal activities?This area appears perfect?Would be a great landing site.Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV>Nili Fossae is also ome of the more aesthetically impressive sites too.Since MSL is designed to etect orgnics it would make sense to send it to a place where organics are present, regardless of how they are forming.  MSL can dtect organis to the ppt level, so ppb abundances should be ideal.If the forth coming paper is taken seriously then surely Nili Fossae will be upgraded as a landing site, at least sience wise.But remember - the engineers always have the last word!Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

baulten · Oct 22, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Things have been quiet on the Mars methane front for some time, but there was this teaser in Nature news today.http://www.nature.com/news/2008/081021/full/4551018a.html?s=news_rss Nili Fossae is a medium-ranked MSL site, maybe this discovery will move it up a few notches.  It is also an ExoMars site as well, so there are two chances in the next 8 years of sending a rover there.The geology of Nili Fossae is consistent with both a hydrothermal and a sedimentary origin for the methane.    There are thick volcanics from Nili Patera to the SW, and there are also sediments.  Both are cut by fault systems that could allow subsurface gases to eascape to the surface and act as pathways for hydrothermal fluids.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Wow!  Great news.  Seems like a bit of evidence for at least some continued subsurface activity, or, maybe, microbial colonies in the area.  Okay, okay, the second is just wishful thinking, but I really hope this site is chosen for MSL.

silylene old · Oct 22, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Does your mechanism work metter on est of weathered material, coarse of fine grained?Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV> Jon, I don't know.  It would make a good research paper. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

JonClarke · Oct 23, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Isn't Methane a by product of the breakdown of Olivine, through hydrothermal activities?This area appears perfect?Would be a great landing site.Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV>I should also add, Andrew, that not just olivine, but many kinds of reduced iron mineral - magnetite, amphibole, pyroxene, etc. can result in hydrogen formation from water, the first in the Fischer-Tropsch synthesis of methane and higher MW hydrocarbons. Jon   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

exoscientist · Oct 23, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Things have been quiet on the Mars methane front for some time, but there was this teaser in Nature news today.http://www.nature.com/news/2008/081021/full/4551018a.html?s=news_rss  Nili Fossae is a medium-ranked MSL site, maybe this discovery will move it up a few notches.  It is also an ExoMars site as well, so there are two chances in the next 8 years of sending a rover there.The geology of Nili Fossae is consistent with both a hydrothermal and a sedimentary origin for the methane.    There are thick volcanics from Nili Patera to the SW, and there are also sediments.  Both are cut by fault systems that could allow subsurface gases to eascape to the surface and act as pathways for hydrothermal fluids.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV> Plumes of methane identified on Mars. Published online 21 October 2008 | 455, 1018 (2008) | "Whether the methane plumes are biological or geological in origin is impossible to know at the moment, says Atreya. For example, microbes could be living in deep groundwater below a perma-frost zone, and their waste methane could percolate up and leak out. The methane could also come from chemical reactions in which buried volcanic rocks rich in the mineral olivine interact with water. A third possibility is that the methane is escaping from buried clathrates, deposits of methane ice formed long ago by one of the other two mechanisms." http://www.nature.com/news/2008/081021/full/4551018a.html This is a major big deal if confirmed. Especially interesting is that high concentrations were found in the area Nili Fossae. A report presented at the "Workshop on Martian Phyllosilicates: Recorders of Aqueous Processes?" this month argues that carbonate best fits the spectra in some deposits in the Nili Fossae region on Mars: PHYLLOSILICATES, ZEOLITES, AND CARBONATE NEAR NILI FOSSAE, MARS: EVIDENCE FOR DISTINCT ENVIRONMENTS OF AQUEOUS ALTERATION. B.L. Ehlmann1, J.F. Mustard1, G.A. Swayze2, J.J. Wray3, O.S. Barnouin-Jha4, J.L.Bishop5, D.J. Des Marais6, F. Poulet7, L.H. Roach1, R.E. Milliken8, R.N. Clark2, S.L. Murchie4, and the MRO CRISM Team. 1Dept. of Geological Sciences, Brown University, 2U.S. Geological Survey, Denver, 3Cornell University, 4JHU-Applied Physics Laboratory 5SETI Institute 6NASA Ames 7IAS, Université Paris-Sud, 8JPL-Caltech (*...@brown.edu). Martian Phyllosilicates: Recorders of Aqueous Processes (2008) . http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/aqueous2008/pdf/7019.pdf   However, there are some discrepancies from a pure carbonate spectra in the spectra from the deposits in Nili Fossae that prevents the researchers from making a definitive identification. Because of this, they offered some other possible explanations here: NEW SECONDARY MINERALS DETECTED BY MRO CRISM AND THEIR GEOLOGIC SETTINGS: KAOLINITE, CHLORITE, ILLITE/MUSCOVITE, AND THE POSSIBILITY OF SERPENTINE OR CARBONATE IN NILI FOSSAE. B.L. Ehlmann1, J.F. Mustard1, J.L. Bishop2, G.A. Swayze3, S.M. Pelkey1, R.N. Clark3, R.E. Milliken4, F. Poulet5, W.M. Calvin6, S.L. Murchie7, L.H. Roach1, J.L. Griffes8 and the MRO CRISM Team. 1Dept. of Geological Sciences, Brown University (*...@brown.edu), 2SETI Institute 3U.S. Geological Survey, Denver 4JPL-Caltech 5IAS, Université Paris-Sud 6Dept. of Geological Sciences and Engineering, University of Nevada, Reno, 7JHU-Applied Physics Laboratory 8CEPS, Smithsonian Institution. Seventh International Conference on Mars. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/7thmars2007/pdf/3270.pdf   Most notable in regard to the methane detection in Nili Fossae is that one of the alternative explanations for the deposits is serpentine. Interestingly, serpentine can arise from aqueous alteration of olivine, and olivine was also seen in Nili Fossae in close proximity to these deposits: Serpentinite. "In the presence of carbon dioxide, however, serpentinitization may form either magnesite (MgCO3) or generate methane (CH4). It is thought that some hydrocarbon gases may be produced by serpentinite reactions within the oceanic crust, and the serpentinite reaction is a key argument for the theory of abiogenic petroleum origin. Reaction 2a: Olivine + Water + Carbonic acid → Serpentine + Magnetite + Methane (Fe,Mg)_2SiO_4 + nH_2O + CO_2 → Mg_3Si_2O_5(OH)_4 + Fe_3O_4 + CH_4 or, in balanced form: 18Mg2SiO4 + 6Fe2SiO4 + 26H2O + CO2 → 12Mg3Si2O5(OH)4 + 4Fe3O4 + CH4" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpentinite   If the methane is being produced continually in this area, this could mean this process requiring liquid water is ongoing on Mars.     Bob Clark   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Oct 23, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> If the methane is being produced continually in this area, this could mean this process requiring liquid water is ongoing on Mars.    Bob Clark   Posted by exoscientist</DIV>Not neccessarily.  It could be circulating liquid, it could be vapour in the atmsphere or nin fractures it could be supercritical water.or it could be nothing to do with Fischer Topsch sythesis at all.  It could be escaping primordial methane, escaping fossil methane from organic rich sidments.There  are many possibilities.  It is unwise to select one that it fits in with our preconceptions when there are so few constraints.  At the moment it is significant that the methane story was become stronger.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Oct 23, 2008

Thanks everyone,This is absolutely fascinating.I agree Jon, the engineers will push for a 'safe' site, but perhaps an airbag landing would be more suitable here, favouring ExoMars over MSL in this respect???? Just throwing my hat in the ring!!!!I can see this area being a major area of research from all three active orbiters. What ever happens I think we can safely say, that this will be a landing site for a future mission, maybe not MSL or ExoMars, but I think something will be sent here. Isn't the crust of Mars though to be too thick for areothermal activity? Just a thought.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Oct 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Thanks everyone,This is absolutely fascinating.I agree Jon, the engineers will push for a 'safe' site, but perhaps an airbag landing would be more suitable here, favouring ExoMars over MSL in this respect???? </DIV>Actually, conventional landers are probaably better in rocky terrain than airbags.  Pathfinder and especially the MERs were much more limited in terms of landing sites than Viking.  One sharp rock would ruin your day.  Avanced conventional landers can have hazard avoidance systems impossible to avoid with bouncing airbagsI don't thik it has been decided whether EoMars will use bouncing airbags like MER, or the new vented airbags.  if it uses the boucing airbags it must be even closer to the limit of such technology than the MERs were.  This means an even smoother site.  I don't kow what it means for the vented airbags.  These substitute for landing legs so the lander comes down normally, and so can perhaps using hazard avoiding guidance.Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Isn't the crust of Mars though to be too thick for areothermal activity? Just a thought.Andrew Brown.  </DIV>I don't think crustal thickness has anything to do with it.  All you need is water, plumbing and a heat source.  We know there  are any heat sources - the volcanoes are proof of that.  We know the crust is well fractured, so the plumbing is there.  We know that the water is present in many places, either as ice or as hydrated minerals, we suspect liquid water too either very shallowly locally or at great depth.  Spirit found evidence of hydrothermal silica near Home Plate, if evidence of hydrothermal activity has been found at one of the six landing sites, it is probably common on Mars.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

exoscientist · Oct 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Not neccessarily.  It could be circulating liquid, it could be vapour in the atmsphere or nin fractures it could be supercritical water.or it could be nothing to do with Fischer Topsch sythesis at all.  It could be escaping primordial methane, escaping fossil methane from organic rich sidments.There  are many possibilities.  It is unwise to select one that it fits in with our preconceptions when there are so few constraints.  At the moment it is significant that the methane story was become stronger.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>  In science, when two or more separate and different experimental techniques support a theory you are inclined to want to gather further information to see if the theory is correct. When I first read about the methane detections on Mars I was more inclined to the biological explanation. But seeing this high methane detection happens to occur in Nili Fossae which might contain serpentine, leads me to believe it could be due to the Fischer-Tropsch synthesis.  Note this is an example of something that often occurs in science, where you have two initially unrelated hypotheses to explain separate experimental observations. A single theory might thereafter be offered to explain both. Then the previously unconnected hypotheses both support and reinforce each other synergistically.     Bob Clark       <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

exoscientist · Oct 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I read the blurb in the Nature article.As you may recall, I had previously posted a few yrs ago on the (now obliterated) SDC-Uplink, and also UMSF forums my alternative hypothesis for methane formation, based on photochemical reduction of CO2 with H2O or H2  over a metal oxide catalyst to form CH4.  High energy UV radiation is required  (and possible, since Mars lack sufficient atmospheric ozone).  The metal oxide catalysts are simply dusts which contain ZrO2, or TiO2, or WO3, etc.So my question is, do we know what kind of dusts are on the surface of Nili Fossae?   Is it possible that the methane releases have an alternative mechanism than a release from surface fissures?  I was considering that it is possible that Martian dust devils could bring a large local concentration of metal oxide dusts into the air, and that this would facilitate the photochemical reduction reactions, and this would then give a temporary spike in the production of methane.Perhaps one day we will all find out if we can land a rover there.cheers!  Posted by silylene</DIV>   Silylene, the serpentinite reaction I mentioned from the Wikipedia link requires heat to initiate, so frequently occurs due to hydrothermal heating or occurs subsurface due to geothermal heating. However, the reaction is also exothermic so I wonder if once it is started it could be self-sustaining similar to how for example to start a fuel burning you have to light it with a flame or a spark but thereafter is self-sustaining.  Do you have a link to the reaction with the methane production being initiated by UV? Note also that dust devils should also produce triboelectric charges (static electricity) that might provide a spark to get the reaction going.   Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

silylene old · Oct 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>   Silylene, the serpentinite reaction I mentioned from the Wikipedia link requires heat to initiate, so frequently occurs due to hydrothermal heating or occurs subsurface due to geothermal heating. However, the reaction is also exothermic so I wonder if once it is started it could be self-sustaining similar to how for example to start a fuel burning you have to light it with a flame or a spark but thereafter is self-sustaining.  Do you have a link to the reaction with the methane production being initiated by UV? Note also that dust devils should also produce triboelectric charges (static electricity) that might provide a spark to get the reaction going.   Bob Clark Posted by exoscientist</DIV>Bob, we had a GREAT thread on photoreduction reactions to produce methane and ammonia in the old Uplink SDC with several journal citations.   And we had a good thread on this in the pre-meltdown Uplink SDC.  Unfortunately, all is lost.Fortunately, a lesser version of this thread can still be found at the UMSF forums. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

JonClarke · Oct 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> In science, when two or more separate and different experimental techniques support a theory you are inclined to want to gather further information to see if the theory is correct. When I first read about the methane detections on Mars I was more inclined to the biological explanation. But seeing this high methane detection happens to occur in Nili Fossae which might contain serpentine, leads me to believe it could be due to the Fischer-Tropsch synthesis.  Note this is an example of something that often occurs in science, where you have two initially unrelated hypotheses to explain separate experimental observations. A single theory might thereafter be offered to explain both. Then the previously unconnected hypotheses both support and reinforce each other synergistically.     Bob Clark       Posted by exoscientist</DIV>I agree it is likely, but I don't think we know enough to rule out other possibilites. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

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