NASA designs "Armageddon" spacecraft

[ragnorak]

<br />Hey check this out!<br /><br />http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/08/03/215924/nasa-plans-armageddon-spacecraft-to-blast-asteroid.html<br />

 

[spacefire]

good ... they finally figured out their priorities.<br /><br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />they know something we don't! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

It is not NASA's job. this is just power point charts

 

[MeteorWayne]

Well, what the heck. If somebody want to pony up the dough, fine.<br /><br />All they've suggested building is the "observer" spacecraft, which could be a pretty darn useful thing. In fact, it's a great idea. Such a platform could perform many kinds of reconissence on many objects, being designed to rendevous and station keep around objects in the solar system.<br />Think asteroids, comets, dwarf planets, moons...<br />Maybe with a base platform, mass production could spread the cost.<br />Sorry, I lost my head <img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" /><br />In theory a great idea.<br /><br />But come up with some dedicated money for it outside of the main budget.<br />PULEEESE.<br /><br />Somebody else is going to have to be responsible for the nukes anyway. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[docm]

The sentiments are good but it violates at least 2 treaties I can think of plus thw 'Armageddon' technique would not work. Stand-off explosions <i>might</i> work way out past Jupiter, but you still have those pesky treaties. <br /><br />Something like this should be international so the intentions can't be misconstrued. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

I misspoke, indeed they are PowerPointing both parts of the system, the "observer" and the "interceptor". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[docm]

<font color="yellow">It is not NASA's job</font><br /><br />From the US's perspective just who the hell's job is it if not NASA? <br /><br />The freakin' Border Patrol? The Navy? CNN or FOX? <br /><br />Sheeesssshhhh.... <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bobblebob]

Cant we just get Bruce Willis to go up and land on it <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" />

 

[docm]

NASA still had to get him there <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[spacefire]

<font color="yellow">It is not NASA's job. this is just power point charts</font><br /><br />I gather you are being sarcastic here....I happen to think deflecting NEOs should be undertaken by a government agency since it is a matter of national (and global) security. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

It is the DOD's job

 

[docm]

DOD has INTERNAL experience with precise spacecraft navigation to;<br /><br />trans-Jovian space? <br /><br />the asteroid belt? <br /><br /><i><b>ANYTHING</b></i> past LEO?<br /><br />That's what an intercept would require. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Smersh]

What happens if it fails on launch and comes crashing back down into the ground, with the nukes on board?<br /><br />NASA would SURELY have considered this possibility wouldn't they? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <h1 style="margin:0pt;font-size:12px">----------------------------------------------------- </h1><p><font color="#800000"><em>Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea."<br />Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."</em></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Website / forums </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[phaze]

Isn't the point that we're trying to save ourselves from global annihilation? I think we'd risk a nuclear accident when the other alternative is the end of us.

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>It is the DOD's job<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Actually now its nobody's job!<br /><br />An asteroid is a natural phenomena. So DOD would be battling a natural disaster scenario. The Air Force Reserve 53rd Weather Reconnaissance Squadron "Hurricane Hunters" gather data for NOAA, I believe.<br /><br />Has not NASA been monitoring the solar weather? Perhaps it is NASA's job to deflect asteroids. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

I'm confused as to how they would use the interceptors.<br /><br />I hope they will use them consecutively and causing the asteroid to increase or decrease solar orbital velocity so to miss Earth. <br /><br />It looks like a start, but the real magic would be in the strategy of how the tool is used. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Please. Where are you going to get more than few micrograms of antimatter, and how will you transport it?<br /><br />Let's not get this thread moved to phenomena, OK? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[Smersh]

Phaze<br /><font color="yellow">Isn't the point that we're trying to save ourselves from global annihilation? I think we'd risk a nuclear accident when the other alternative is the end of us.</font><br /><br />True, but aren't there other ways of deflecting asteroids without risking the use of nukes? I read somewhere once that it may be possible to just gently nudge asteroids off course providing it is done early enough, ie several years before impact. <br /><br />I can't remember exactly how though, I'll have to see if I can find a link. If this were possible, I suppose we'd have to be 100% certain it was going to impact the Earth or maybe there's a danger we could deflect it towards us rather than away from us. <br /><br />As far as I know, nobody has yet come up with a perfect, risk-free solution to this problem. I'm sure there are people posting here who have much greater knowledge of this than me, (a layman.) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <h1 style="margin:0pt;font-size:12px">----------------------------------------------------- </h1><p><font color="#800000"><em>Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea."<br />Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."</em></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Website / forums </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

Interesting article, thanx for bringing it to our attention.<br /><br />Noteworthy are the details of how the nukes are supposed to deflect the threat asteroid.

 

[spacefire]

Is it possible to place large mirrors at various or all Lagrange points that focus the Sun's rays and track asteroids with them, altering their trajectory by burning material at their surface?<br />I was never interested in optics so I don't know if that is possible or we need to use laser beams instead.<br /><br />An alternative: maybe solar powered lasers at Lagrange points? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[Smersh]

Yes Spacefire, I think that was the method I was thinking about now you mention it. <br /><br />I just found this article on Space.com from 2000 which I'll copy/paste here in full (minus the graphics.)<br /><br /><font color="yellow">SAILING WITH SUNLIGHT: NON-NUCLEAR ASTEROID DEFLECTION <br /><br />By Michael Paine<br /><br />Special to SPACE.com<br />posted: 08:32 pm ET<br />08 February 2000<br /><br />Asteroid expert Jay Melosh from the University of Arizona has looked at a range of ideas for deflecting asteroids without resorting to nuclear weapons.<br /><br />They include:<br /><br /> * Deploying a giant parabolic mirror to concentrate the sun's rays and vaporize rock on the surface of the asteroid. The vaporized material flies off at high speed and generates a re-coil action that pushes the asteroid, slowly but surely, in the opposite direction.#<br /><br /> * Landing cannon-like devices on the surface to fire asteroid material into space. This also depends on re-coil action. An ion drive, as used on the Deep Space 1 spacecraft, might also do the trick.<br /><br /> * Attaching a giant solar sail to the asteroid <br /><br />The solar sail (pictured below) uses the small, but constant pressure of sunlight acting over a large area to steadily move the asteroid.<br /><br />Melosh points out that the sail needs to be steerable, like those on a modern yacht, to tug the asteroid in the right direction:<br /><br />"An along-orbit push (at right angles to the sun) is by far the most effective in changing a collision into a miss," Melosh says.<br /><br />There are two other ideas related to the solar sail concept: a giant silvery balloon, which in theory would be easier to deploy than a sail and wrapping the asteroid in foil (or painting it) to increase its reflectivity. Melosh explains, "with such a reflector it is hard to steer -- it can only apply a force directly away from the sun, which is the least helpful direction". <br /><br />Melosh is cautious about techniques that depend on being</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <h1 style="margin:0pt;font-size:12px">----------------------------------------------------- </h1><p><font color="#800000"><em>Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea."<br />Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."</em></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Website / forums </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[comga]

Wow! Is this bogus or what? PowerPoint engineering without PowerPoint.<br /><br />Schweickart, Chapman, Lu, Durda, et. al. have proposed a much gentler and more controllable way to deflect Apophis, if that becomes necessary. Basically they show that much lower power approaches are better, not just sufficent, and less expensive. Nukes create more problems than they solve, not the least of which is just having them launched into space. I like the criticism that when the get done shattering the asteroid the parts that still hit the earth could be contaminated in addition to being massive.<br /><br />No one needs a 1500 kg observer spacecraft. Deep Impact included an impactor for one third of that. Rosetta, MESSENGER, and Dawn are rendezvous craft at much lower masses.<br /><br />The Deep Impact instruments don't include lidar and radar, and no one is really talking about replicating them for this mission. No one is going to power an inner solar system craft with radioisotopic generators because they are too expensive, low output, and programatically problematic.<br /><br />This looks like an excuse to create another use for the Ares V. Nice touch with the exact type and yield of the nuclear warheads. Too bad they don't know the mass or structure they would be pushing, and we can bet that current warheads are probably not optimized for radiation effects or for asymmetrical blasts to improve efficiency. (If the MSFC people knew these kind of details, they wouldn't be allowed to talk about them.)<br /><br />This is sloppy stuff.

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Basically they show that much lower power approaches are better, not just sufficent, and less expensive. Nukes create more problems than they solve<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />With all the cosmic radiation in space what is the big deal about thermal nuclear detonation to redirect an asteroid, the Earth has natural shields?<br /><br />See all we really know about nuclear detonation has been done undergound or in the atmosphere at ground level. But this is talking about detonations outside even Earth orbit. And for a quick answer for 'just in case' scenario seems to be necessary. Other ideas would take more time to develop. I think this is a good first response to the threat. But I also think its not the most desirable. <br /><br />I personally like the 'gravity tug' but that would require massive amounts of fuel, even if its running on ion drives, were talking about moving mountains. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

Smersh:<br />True, but aren't there other ways of deflecting asteroids without risking the use of nukes? I read somewhere once that it may be possible to just gently nudge asteroids off course providing it is done early enough,<br /><br />Me:<br />There is no way I'm aware of that is as practical as the use of nukes. If an asteroid has enough mass...even a small asteroid is massive enough that a 1 megaton nuke might be the equivalent of a shuttle ACS rocket in terms of power relative to size.<br /><br />If one is trying to save the planet from massive destruction...even civilization ending destruction. It would help to know that during atmospheric nuclear tests, over 500 atomic/hydrogen bombs from Hiroshima yield and smaller to the Tsar Bomba at 57 megatons and were still here. Some of the atomic bombs were actually filmed by citizens of Las Vegas. The one I recall being detonated about 70 miles away in the Nevada test area and the plumb being recorded on someones home movie camera.<br /><br />If its ever announced that a large asteroid is definetely headed our way and will hit with enough force to wipe out humanity...somehow, if nukes prove to be the solution, I'd say even the anti nuke crowd will come to their senses at least long enough to allow the nuke to be launched and do its job. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[docm]

"Stand-off" nuclear deflection doesn't depend on a blast pushing it but by radiation conversion of the bodies surface into a plasma jet. Newtons 3rd does the rest.<br /><br />The problem is that this is a bad idea with loosely structured bodies like rubble piles and comets. You also have to do it years or decades before impact. <br /><br />SDC article.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>