Origins and Big Bang

[Catastrophe]

This is my first post and I have only just arrived here and not had time to read the mammoth amount in all threads so please excuse me if I am duplicating anything already here.

I am rather concerned when referring to the Big Bang as space-time seems to be forgotten and all the talk is about BEFORE this and INTO that as if referring to the SPACE and TIME we have previously viewed separately.

A related point is that I understand (maybe wrongly) that the idea of the BB arose by extrapolating backwards (in time) the expansion of the Universe (forwards in time). Why is it assumed that this extrapolating must be linear all the way to zero 'time' i.e. the BB. Is our physics so solid that it cannot change near the BB to 'smooth' into a curved approach near 'zero time'? Of course this might allow a smoothing out 'on the other side' linking to the known idea that a black hole in one 'system' might lead to a Big Bang in another. I use the word 'system' to avoid confusion with the word 'Universe'.

That's all for the moment, except thanks for being here and to the providers of this board. Best wishes to you all.

Cat (short for Catastrophe obviously, and hoping it is not already in use, in which case, of course, I won't use it again).

 

[Excalibur]

It’s great that we can think and try and puzzle out the start and direction of the “ system” we inhabit! Keep the theories coming and others can try and gather experimental evidence to prove or disprove the theories. Enjoy the puzzle!

 

[Catastrophe]

"I recently saw the blog about a star that is likely older than the Universe."

The problem is caused by the fact that they are not using the same methods so you have to start looking at the possible inaccuracies in any methods involved'

It is like saying A is 200 metres from B and someone else says B is 800 tiddlywinks from A and no one can tell you how many tiddlywinks there are in a metre (or meter if you are American). One person claims he measures there are 3.9 per metre and another claims 4.1 tiddlywinks per metre.

You have to start looking at how they achieved their results and how accurate their rulers were.

Hope this helps

Cat

 

[wingedhippo]

It’s great that we can think and try and puzzle out the start and direction of the “ system” we inhabit! Keep the theories coming and others can try and gather experimental evidence to prove or disprove the theories. Enjoy the puzzle!

It's impossible to carry out such an experiment to prove the given theory true or false. The only thing we can do is assess whether it is rational or irrational.

 

[Truthseeker007]

It’s great that we can think and try and puzzle out the start and direction of the “ system” we inhabit! Keep the theories coming and others can try and gather experimental evidence to prove or disprove the theories. Enjoy the puzzle!

The problem is when people ask questions some get all uptight and right away label you a flat earther for questioning mainstream theories and science. I think for some these theories have become a religion to and nothing can stray from that in their minds. Just like if you question a Christian about Jesus.

 

[Truthseeker007]

It's impossible to carry out such an experiment to prove the given theory true or false. The only thing we can do is assess whether it is rational or irrational.

It was also impossible to fly in a plane at one time according to some mainstream scientist back in the day. But the impossible happened. Once people learn something isn't impossible them it becomes possible. If we think something is impossible then surly it will be impossible.

 

[Truthseeker007]

"I recently saw the blog about a star that is likely older than the Universe."

The problem is caused by the fact that they are not using the same methods so you have to start looking at the possible inaccuracies in any methods involved'

It is like saying A is 200 metres from B and someone else says B is 800 tiddlywinks from A and no one can tell you how many tiddlywinks there are in a metre (or meter if you are American). One person claims he measures there are 3.9 per metre and another claims 4.1 tiddlywinks per metre.

You have to start looking at how they achieved their results and how accurate their rulers were.

Hope this helps

Cat

Could it be a star that came from a white hole from another older universe? Just one thought that came to my head about that. And yes I realize white holes and or black holes have not been proven yet. Well basically anything about space is just a theory.

 

[Catastrophe]

Truthseeker007

"Could it be a star that came from a white hole from another older universe? Just one thought that came to my head about that. And yes I realize white holes and or black holes have not been proven yet. Well basically anything about space is just a theory."

You are correct. There are other possibilities, even if slightly more exotic.
I am afraid I was concentrating on more mundane matters involving just analysing methods employed.

Cat

 

[Truthseeker007]

Truthseeker007

"Could it be a star that came from a white hole from another older universe? Just one thought that came to my head about that. And yes I realize white holes and or black holes have not been proven yet. Well basically anything about space is just a theory."

You are correct. There are other possibilities, even if slightly more exotic.
I am afraid I was concentrating on more mundane matters involving just analysing methods employed.

Cat

That is all good and thanks. I just got into reading some information on old Hindu Texts. Maybe for some answers our scientist should be reading some of those. It is astonishing such as this:

Indian authors have published a number of books that compare Vedic thought with modern science and quantum physics theories. Only a highly and technologically advanced civilization could have evolved the subtle ideas expressed in the Vedas. In ‘Vedic String Theory’ author M. Anant Bhakta says that in his work “a pioneer attempt is made to present the String Theory of Everything (T.O.E.) discovered by the Vedic sages, perhaps four to five millennia ago, and on which the unique Vedanta philosophy rests. …at the primordial level and from a void-like infinite ocean of consciousness (the Brahman, the Unborn), emerges the generator of ‘strings or sutras of consciousness’ — called the Hiranyagarbha (Golden Egg, the Firstborn), which is the precursor of the universes.”
Thus we see that ideas found in today’s string theory are connected Vedic thought. More quotations from M.Anant Bhakta’s Vedic String Theory:

“Mind-space (Chidakasha) … mind space is a mirrior-image of the macrocosm. … Imagery of Foam and Bubbles … often used in the Vedic literature while describing the clusters of universes that are being created and dissolved in the cosmos. … Quantum electrodynamics holds the view that all-pervading vacuum continuously spawns particles and waves that spontaneously pop into and out of existence on an unimaginably short time scale. This flux of particles is frequently referred to as ‘quantum foam’ which is believed to extend throughout the universe.”

“According to Gribben and Rees, ‘Theorists are now being led to consider the possibility that our universe is, indeed, just one bubble among many in some greater meta-universe.’ Michio Kaku writes... These universes might be compared to a vast collection of soap bubbles suspended in air.”

The genius sage and saint of Kashmir, Abhinavagupta (950-1020 AD) expressed a similar idea in his Paramarthasara, or Essence of the Exact Reality: “Maya tattva serves as the inanimate objective substance out of which all other sentient elements evolve. It is thus the substantive cause of numerous universes floating like bubbles in an ocean.”

M. Anant Bhakti: “Hiranyagarbha is variously translated as the Golden Egg, Golden Embryo … also called ‘Sutratma,’ the string-shaped consciousness (Atman) … Sutras mean ‘strings’ … accurate to regard sutras as strings with encoded program. According to Sanskrit scholars, sutra literally means ‘that which generates something.’ … Hiranyagarbha or the string field … that, along with consciousness, pervades the universe is also called VYOMA (ether).”

Colony Earth: Science in The Vedas - Part 1

In my view, 6000 years ago the peoples of India either were far more advanced than NASA and then somehow mysteriously forgot — or the Mahabharata is the history of and evidence for an off-world civili

www.ancient-origins.net

 

[Catastrophe]

Truthseeker007

Thank you for taking the time to write that. It is very interesting.
"Michio Kaku writes... These universes might be compared to a vast collection of soap bubbles suspended in air.”
I have a book somewhere here by Michio Kaku. I must find it.

Strange how you sometimes read things which are not there. I saw the tone of part of your reply and read Anant Bhakti as Annie Besant who was very involved in Theosophy which was a 'philosophy' (for want of a better word' arising from the interactions of the British to our time in India.

Coming back to Michio that reminds me of the idea that with the expansion of the Universe and the limit of the speed of light we are getting 'out of range' of some (eventually all?) other galaxies (perhaps not the Local Group) as we shall be too far away for light to reach us in time. Maybe something around here reminded me of it. So Michio's soap bubbles may well be a good analogy.

Cat

 

[Excalibur]

It's impossible to carry out such an experiment to prove the given theory true or false. The only thing we can do is assess whether it is rational or irrational. Thank you for giving some thoughts to this discussion!

The British tax system is irrational , it exists. The British language is irrational, it exists. Assessment of the leg of an elephant is not the only thing we can do to discover what we are standing next to in the old story. We can ask other folk what they find out about the creature they are examining or even take a step back and look at it . In other words gather evidence for its existence . Elephants exist . The universe exists. We are at the stage of gathering information about how it is all put together and how it works. Keep measuring and gathering information and let the philosophers nit pick the semantics .

 

[wingedhippo]

It was also impossible to fly in a plane at one time according to some mainstream scientist back in the day. But the impossible happened. Once people learn something isn't impossible them it becomes possible. If we think something is impossible then surly it will be impossible.

So please tell me how you will carry out the big bang experiment. According to me, the big bang theory is irrational and I can explain why.

--
Those who admit to understanding relativity, automatically acknowledge understanding nonsense

 

[wingedhippo]

The British tax system is irrational , it exists. The British language is irrational, it exists. Assessment of the leg of an elephant is not the only thing we can do to discover what we are standing next to in the old story. We can ask other folk what they find out about the creature they are examining or even take a step back and look at it . In other words gather evidence for its existence . Elephants exist . The universe exists. We are at the stage of gathering information about how it is all put together and how it works. Keep measuring and gathering information and let the philosophers nit pick the semantics .

We discuss physics in this forum, not economics. Do you know what the term "exists" in physics mean? Well, exists = has shape and location. In physics, we deal with objects whereas you're talking about concepts. "Elephant" is also a concept if it is not related to a specific object.

--
Those who have the monopoly of truth spread lies

 

[Catastrophe]

Whilst checking on Michio Kaku I found this:

"One thing that people should know about science in general is that science is the engine of prosperity. All the wealth we see around us is the byproduct of scientific discovery. Concerning the universe, the average person should appreciate the fact that the universe is knowable, i.e. with enough time and effort, we can explain the great mysteries of the universes, without resorting to magic."

I appreciate that 'enough time and effort' is a tall order (do you say tall order in US?).

Cat

 

[egribble]

Nope. It's irrational.
NOTHING cannot create SOMETHING and SOMETHING cannot turn into NOTHING.

In science/physics, we deal with objects. There is no physics without objects. We define the notions we use. We explain phenomena, mechanisms of interactions between objects and distinguish objects from concepts. For example, energy, force, wave are concepts.

As I said earlier, energy, force (also field) are concepts.

Charges are also concepts. NOTHING cannot give birth to SOMETHING.

BB is an irrational idea. The author still tries to explain phenomena with concepts. BTW, there is only one universe.

No SOMETHING from NOTHING ((!)) It's irrational

 

[egribble]

What we believe to be rational is the way our brain perceives things. Our brain evolved to survive on the two dimensional plains of Africa. We cannot conceive three dimensional curving. We cannot conceive the concept that time began with the big Bang. How can you have a place without time. Yet Astrophysicists believe what we perceive as time is the steady flow to increased entrophy at the atomic and sub atomic level. We cannot conceive the notion that something can come out of nothing. The reality is that physics does not respect our concept of what reality should be.

 

[Truthseeker007]

Truthseeker007

Thank you for taking the time to write that. It is very interesting.
"Michio Kaku writes... These universes might be compared to a vast collection of soap bubbles suspended in air.”
I have a book somewhere here by Michio Kaku. I must find it.

Strange how you sometimes read things which are not there. I saw the tone of part of your reply and read Anant Bhakti as Annie Besant who was very involved in Theosophy which was a 'philosophy' (for want of a better word' arising from the interactions of the British to our time in India.

Coming back to Michio that reminds me of the idea that with the expansion of the Universe and the limit of the speed of light we are getting 'out of range' of some (eventually all?) other galaxies (perhaps not the Local Group) as we shall be too far away for light to reach us in time. Maybe something around here reminded me of it. So Michio's soap bubbles may well be a good analogy.

Cat

Your welcome Cat.

I really like your positive attitude on here about things. That is a good point and how big will the bubble get before it explodes? We all know once a bubble gets to big it pops. If it is a bubble as some think. Some also think that once it expands so far it will start to come back together. I guess it all depends. Is the bubble strong like gum or like soap?lol!

 

[Truthseeker007]

So please tell me how you will carry out the big bang experiment. According to me, the big bang theory is irrational and I can explain why.

--
Those who admit to understanding relativity, automatically acknowledge understanding nonsense

Isn't that what the Large Hadron Collider is trying to do?

Sure I would like that explanation for I think it may be irrational also.

 

[Catastrophe]

Egribble

"Our brain evolved to survive on the two dimensional plains of Africa. We cannot conceive three dimensional curving. "

Surely you do not believe we are flatlanders?

 

[Excalibur]

The British tax system is irrational , it exists. The British language is irrational, it exists. Assessment of the leg of an elephant is not the only thing we can do to discover what we are standing next to in the old story. We can ask other folk what they find out about the creature they are examining or even take a step back and look at it . In other words gather evidence for its existence . Elephants exist . The universe exists. We are at the stage of gathering information about how it is all put together and how it works. Keep measuring and gathering information and let the philosophers nit pick the semantics .

It is existence that is under discussion. Wingedhippos do not exist and are irrational ,yet the name , the label, the concept of one appears on this forum. Whether or not white holes etc exist we can discuss the concept.

 

[Catastrophe]

Truthseeker007

"That is a good point and how big will the bubble get before it explodes? We all know once a bubble gets to big it pops. If it is a bubble as some think. Some also think that once it expands so far it will start to come back together. I guess it all depends. Is the bubble strong like gum or like soap?"

Sadly I do not know the answer to these questions. There is an old English saying which covers this situation: "Ask me another". Unfortunately if you ask me another like these I shall be equally unable to be of assistance.

Cat

 

[Catastrophe]

Excalibur

Sorry, were you talking to me?
If so, my views are at the top of (this) page 2.

Cat

 

[wingedhippo]

What we believe to be rational is the way our brain perceives things.

Have you any other option? Do you think it's inappropriate?

Our brain evolved to survive on the two dimensional plains of Africa.

Even plains of Africa are 3-D

We cannot conceive three dimensional curving.

Because there is no 3-D curving.

We cannot conceive the concept that time began with the big Bang.

There was no big bang. Time is a concept. It's the synonym of eg motion, change. Does motion have its beginning?

How can you have a place without time.

Place and time are concepts in contrast to a place of something and time/motion of something.

Yet Astrophysicists believe what we perceive as time is the steady flow

The flow, of course, is one of the synonyms of time but both are concepts unless they are bound with an object.

to increased entrophy

According to me, there is no entropy in the universe.

at the atomic and sub atomic level.

So, what is happening at the atomic and subatomic level?

We cannot conceive the notion that something can come out of nothing.

Because it's irrational.

The reality is that physics does not respect our concept of what reality should be.

Physics is science. In science/physics, we explain phenomena and formulate conclusions on reality.

 

[Catastrophe]

Truthseeker007

""That is a good point and how big will the bubble get before it explodes? We all know once a bubble gets to big it pops. If it is a bubble as some think. Some also think that once it expands so far it will start to come back together. I guess it all depends. Is the bubble strong like gum or like soap?""

I should really have added that the bubble idea is only an analogy which I do not think we should take too far. Because bubble joinand/or burst does not constrain "the universes" to do likewise.

Tut, tut. Universes... next we shall have "multiverseS"

Cat

 

[Truthseeker007]

Truthseeker007

""That is a good point and how big will the bubble get before it explodes? We all know once a bubble gets to big it pops. If it is a bubble as some think. Some also think that once it expands so far it will start to come back together. I guess it all depends. Is the bubble strong like gum or like soap?""

I should really have added that the bubble idea is only an analogy which I do not think we should take too far. Because bubble joinand/or burst does not constrain "the universes" to do likewise.

Tut, tut. Universes... next we shall have "multiverseS"

Cat

Well since we are on the subject. Quantum electrodynamics holds the view that all-pervading vacuum continuously spawns particles and waves that spontaneously pop into and out of existence on an unimaginably short time scale. This flux of particles is frequently referred to as ‘quantum foam’ which is believed to extend throughout the universe.

Theorists are now being led to consider the possibility that our universe is, indeed, just one bubble among many in some greater meta-universe.’ Michio Kaku writes... These universes might be compared to a vast collection of soap bubbles suspended in air.”

The fun of Quantum Physics.