Pentagon to Have Dead Satellite Shot Down

[MeteorWayne]

We will know whether it works or not.<br /><br />The satellite is easily visible.<br /><br />If it disappears, it worked.<br /><br />If it doesn't it didn't. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

<i>We demonstrated this successfully before, back in 1985, it's called ASAT.</i><br /><br />The F-15 launched interceptor. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[propforce]

<font color="yellow">You missed the point. If a few satellites in LEO are destroyed, then we could be surrounded by a shell of debris thick enough to prevent launches to GPS or Geosynch orbits.</font><br /><br /><br />A "few" satellites blow up in LEO will not cover it <i>"...by a shell of debris thick enough to prevent launches to GPS or Geosynch orbits. ..."</i>. You'll have to destroy a heck of lot of satellites in order for that to happen.<br /><br />Eventually the debris de-orbits because of Earth's gravity pull and burn up in the atmosphere. <br /><br />If you're really worry about space debirs, then you should call for no space launches. Where do you think all those upper stages go after they deliver the satellites?<br /><br />Granted, we would rather see bigger debris de-orbiting than a bunch of small ones. But in this case, it has a national security implication.<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

I don't think you understand the effects of the debris from destroyed satellites destroying more satellites, creating more debris, which destroys more satellites....etc.<br /><br />It is an uncontrollable feedback process after a certain point.<br /><br />I'll try and find something that discusses that in more detail. I know I've seen it somewhere, but might take a bit of time to find. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[propforce]

<font color="yellow">If there wasn't extremely high-confidence that this would work, they wouldn't announce it in such a dramatic fashion</font><br /><br />I was going to suggest using a GMD ground based interceptor and shoot down the satellite on reentry. But after reading your post, I agree that we should use a more reliable means !! <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Wayne, I've read the same thing: that orbital debris will perturb out of it's orbit, and form a shell of debris instead. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

And let me state, I have no problem with shooting this down at 100 km altitude.<br /><br />Good test, good demonstration. No debris left in orbit.<br /><br />But if it escalates into a satellite shooting contest, our world will be a very different place. So doing it at 240 km altitude would set a very bad reinforcement of the chinese test.<br /><br />MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[propforce]

<font color="yellow">I don't think you understand the effects of the debris from destroyed satellites destroying more satellites, creating more debris, which destroys more satellites....etc. </font><br /><br />You don't think??? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />When was the last time you've read that a satellite was destroyed by space debirs?<br /><br />If all orbiting "mass" travel the same speed around a given orbit, why would one mass bumps into another? <br /><br />Also, if my satellite weighs 10,000 lbm and the space debris weighs 1.0 lbm, what velocity must the debris travel <i>faster</i> in order to do a real damage on my 10,000 lbm satellite? What velocity must it travel to "destroy" my 10,000 lbm satellite? What critical part of my satellite must it hit?<br /><br />Satellites are not as fragile as you think.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">I'll try and find something that discusses that in more detail. I know I've seen it somewhere, but might take a bit of time to find.</font><br /><br />Yes, please do. It will add to much interesting discussion. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[yevaud]

<i>Satellites are not as fragile as you think.</i><br /><br />Satellites are <i>very</i> fragile. I know, I was on a team building one once. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[racer7]

I can't believe that anyone posting here thinks that this is a good idea. This is either just hubris on the part of the Bush administration or they really are extremely worried about tech falling into the wrong hands. Either way, it sends a terrible message considering the US outcry after China's "experiment" last year.

 

[MeteorWayne]

<font color="yellow">When was the last time you've read that a satellite was destroyed by space debirs? </font><br /><br />It's been a while, but as the amount of orbital debris continues to increase it becomes more an more likely.<br /><br /><br /><font color="yellow">If all orbiting "mass" travel the same speed around a given orbit, why would one mass bumps into another? </font><br /><br />That's exactly the point. unless it is in an <i> identical </i> orbit, the velocities can be quite extreme. That's why chips of paint can gouge out divots in Shuttle orbiter windows, railings and radiators. Paint chips.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Also, if my satellite weighs 10,000 lbm and the space debris weighs 1.0 lbm, what velocity must the debris travel faster in order to do a real damage on my 10,000 lbm satellite? What velocity must it travel to "destroy" my 10,000 lbm satellite? What critical part of my satellite must it hit? </font><br /><br />You don'y even want to think about a 1 lb object hitting a satellite.<br />It could easily smash a 10,000 lb satellite to bits.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Satellites are not as fragile as you think.</font><br /><br />And they are not as strong as you think. a 1 pund object has enough energy to destroy any satellite at 10,000 mph. It's just a qustion of qhat size the pieces are, and what orbit they are in.<br />KE-1/2 m*v^2<br /><br /><br /><font color="yellow">Yes, please do. It will add to much interesting discussion. </font><br /><br />I'm working on it.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

CNN HEadline News says the pentagon briefing will be in about half an hour and they will cover it live. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<font color="yellow">MW - CNN HEadline News says the pentagon briefing will be in about half an hour and they will cover it live.</font><br /><br />Cool. I'll try to watch it. Maybe some more good discussion can come out of this. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

s_g has said NASA TV will cover the DOD briefing live in 5 minutes. <br /><br />Edit: Oops, you made it over to this thread too,<br /><br />Thanx again! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

aye, on it<br /><br />btw, I replied earlier and board sql-error'd me. <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /><br /><br />Oh well, tuning in! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Live on headline news now <br />Edit<br />Now live on NAS TV online <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

And an intact impact of a tank of Hydrazine increases the risk footprint to 200+ yards of "possibly" deadly exposure levels. So, falling debris alone would present a minimal risk with, at most, a few people injured/killed even in high-density areas. But, a high-density population area with 200+ sq yrds of possibly "deadly" area as a result (including lingering results) would be significantly more dangerous. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

The missile to be used: Standard Missile 3 (Raytheon RIM-161)<br /><br /><i>"The SM-3 missile, designated RIM-161A, uses the basic SM-2ER Block IV A airframe and propulsion, and adds a third stage rocket motor (a.k.a. Advanced Solid Axial Starge, ASAS, made by Alliant Techsystems), a GPS/INS guidance section (a.k.a. GAINS, GPS-Aided Inertial Navigation System), and a LEAP (Lightweight Exo-Atmospheric Projectile) kinetic warhead (i.e. a non-explosive hit-to-kill warhead). The launching ships will be updated with Aegis LEAP Intercept (ALI) computer soft- and hardware."</i> http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-161.html<br /><br />* Also:<i>"he SM-3 KW is a highly modular, compact, space tested kinetic warhead designed to defend against short to intermediate range ballistic missile attacks. Raytheon has engineered two prior generations of LEAP designs starting in 1985 under contracts with SDIO and BMDO. This third generation LEAP design integrates the teamed experience of Raytheon and Boeing in KW designs and Alliant Techsystems’ expertise in Solid Divert and Attitude Control. The SM-3 KW design features a large aperture wide field of view long wave infrared seeker that provides acquisition ranges greater than 300 km against typical ballistic missile threats. Seeker pointing and intercept guidance are supported by a production IFOG Inertial Measurement Unit and wooden round simplicity of the SDACS propulsion providing over 2 miles of terminal divert capability. The KW includes a fully encrypted data downlink capability for full engineering evaluation of KW performance and to support rapid kill assessment."</i> http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/sm3.htm<br /><br /><br />*(Additions as they come)<br /><br />* Intercept point: 130 NM alt. Northern Pacific Launch (possible)<br /><br />*Sample Hydrazine MSDS - <a></a> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Sorry, I don't buy for a second that this has anything to do with the hydrazine.<br />I guess, having grown up in the Nixon era, I have a bit of skepticism.<br /><br />Notes:<br /><br />They will do it after the shuttle lands (could they bring the orbiter home early to give more time?)<br /><br />Window they expect is from 2-3 days from now to 7-8 days from now.<br /><br />Compare that to the shuttle timeline.<br /><br />One of the military guys called it a missle rather than a satellite <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />They are going to aim for the Hydrazine tank??? That seems well beyond our current capability, considering the success rate of ballistic intercepts.<br /><br />The intention is to nail it right before atmosphere intercept (good)<br /><br />Will use 1 "Missile 3" with 2 backups.<br /><br />One boo boo, if they graze it, one of them said it would come down in 1 or 2 orbits, 10 or 15 hours.<br /><br />Huh?? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

More odd stuff.<br /><br />They say they intend to hit it at ~ 130 nautical miles.<br /><br />That is ~ 149 statute miles, or 250 km.<br /><br />The current orbit (Epoch Feb 11) is 261x263 km. It's lower now.<br /><br />I sense a conflict between the shuttle landing (where the impact would occur over the Pacific) if landing was needed on the west coast.<br /><br />They deny any conflict, but the numbers may be real close. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

They said this would be near the end of it's boost phase. Tough shot! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

It's a kinetic missile - hit-to-kill warhead <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

The whole statemnt makes no sense. 1 or 2 orbits ain't 10 or 15 hours. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

No, kinetic, see above. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

In a way, it's an interesting test of our capability in shooting up an asteroid. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />But that's a subject for another thread. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>