Phoenix Mars Lander Extended Mission. Sol 90+ & R.I.P Sol 157.

MeteorWayne · Oct 19, 2008

Andrew, I believe they will have sufficient power to run the ovens (and MECA) for a while longer. The impression I got from one of the conferences the priority was to do all the arm work ASAP because it uses an unpredicatble amount of power. Whereas running the ovens (and to a smaller extent MECA) are highly predictable so can be scheduled with the precise power budget in mind. That's what I recall, anyway. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Oct 19, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Andrew, I believe they will have sufficient power to run the ovens (and MECA) for a while longer. The impression I got from one of the conferences the priority was to do all the arm work ASAP because it uses an unpredicatble amount of power. Whereas running the ovens (and to a smaller extent MECA) are highly predictable so can be scheduled with the precise power budget in mind. That's what I recall, anyway. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Thanks Wayne,That would make more sense. Idealy all samples need to be delivered to TEGA by the end of next week & that is certainly looking doable. Of course, the arm will use varying amounts of power due to what the action is, i.e will use less if the scoop is empty & just moving from side to side, considerably more if the scoop has samples in it & using all of the actuators to deliver samples.I cannot imagine that there is very much left for the TEGA, heating samples to 1,003 C / 1,837 F, is still energy intensive surely, but as you say, that usage is precisely known. I hope the robotic arm camera can still be used, perhaps permanently pointing underneath Phoenix to monitor frost deposition on Holy Cow & the lander legs.  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Oct 19, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Thanks Wayne,That would make more sense. Idealy all samples need to be delivered to TEGA by the end of next week & that is certainly looking doable. Of course, the arm will use varying amounts of power due to what the action is, i.e will use less if the scoop is empty & just moving from side to side, considerably more if the scoop has samples in it & using all of the actuators to deliver samples.I cannot imagine that there is very much left for the TEGA, heating samples to 1,003 C / 1,837 F, is still energy intensive surely, but as you say, that usage is precisely known. I hope the robotic arm camera can still be used, perhaps permanently pointing underneath Phoenix to monitor frost deposition on Holy Cow & the lander legs.  Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV> Remember the amount of material in the TEGA ovens is VERY small, so not much energy is reguired to reach those temperatures. As long as it's a predictable amount of energy you can just budget the supply. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

brandbll · Oct 19, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Thanks Wayne,That would make more sense. Idealy all samples need to be delivered to TEGA by the end of next week & that is certainly looking doable. Of course, the arm will use varying amounts of power due to what the action is, i.e will use less if the scoop is empty & just moving from side to side, considerably more if the scoop has samples in it & using all of the actuators to deliver samples.I cannot imagine that there is very much left for the TEGA, heating samples to 1,003 C / 1,837 F, is still energy intensive surely, but as you say, that usage is precisely known. I hope the robotic arm camera can still be used, perhaps permanently pointing underneath Phoenix to monitor frost deposition on Holy Cow & the lander legs.  Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV> Question: Did they explore when creating Phoenix in possibly using the heat generated in the ovens to use it as an extra source of heating the lander after the oven was used? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> You wanna talk some jive? I'll talk some jive. I'll talk some jive like you've never heard! </div>

JonClarke · Oct 19, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I took "six of eight ovens have been used to date" to include the blank, but I don't know for sure. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>The list on the planetary society web site had samples in six ovens.  Since the OFB has already been loaded I take that to mean that 7 are now used. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Oct 19, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Remember the amount of material in the TEGA ovens is VERY small, so not much energy is reguired to reach those temperatures. As long as it's a predictable amount of energy you can just budget the supply. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>That's true Wayne. Think I'm getting tired & not thinkling properly. The samples are what, only a few grammes at most, as you say, that really would not require many watts to heat to the required temps. The arm is the main drain at the moment on power supplies. Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Question: Did they explore when creating Phoenix in possibly using the heat generated in the ovens to use it as an extra source of heating the lander after the oven was used? Posted by brandbll</DIV>Hi brandbll,The TEGA ovens are all self enclosed units within the TEGA assembly. I would need to check, but I think the Ovens contribute no warming to Phoenix what so ever & also thery are exterior to the body of the lander.I must admit, it is a superb idea to have somehow used excess warmth from the ovens to keep Phoenix warm, in fact had I been on the design team, it would have been something I would have looked into.But AFAIK, the ovens do not provide extra heating & once they're used & gone through the cycle, they're finished & cannot be turned back on. Perhaps someone else knows differently?Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Oct 19, 2008

brandbull,From what I can gather the amount of energy required to heat the Tega ovens is so small (and if you will recall, they are well outboard of most of the mass of the lander) that they would provide minimal heat to save the circuit boards, which is what will likely kill Phoenix. Below ~ -150 C the circuit board material itself turns to glass...the phase change then is expected to crack the circuit traces on the boards. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

centsworth_II · Oct 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The list on the planetary society web site had samples in six ovens.  Since the OFB has already been loaded I take that to mean that 7 are now used. Posted by jonclarke</DIV> Possibly.  It's not really clear to me.  I know they dumped OFB onto TEGA  -- #2, I think. I don't recall reading if it successfully filled the oven.  Also, they were trying to fill one oven, unsuccessfully, with ice.  I don't know if that oven remains unfilled, or if it was eventually filled  with soil.  What is sure is that there is one oven whose external shutters have not yet been opened, and it is one of the end ovens whose shutters should open wide.  Hopefully they will take one last crack at getting an ice sample into that oven. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

efron_24 · Oct 20, 2008

that wind meter going back and forth is an amazing sight..... again.. i would put the microphone on .. and listen in..thin air.. or no thin air.. things are moving and sound is made <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Oct 21, 2008

A fun little interview with Peter Smith, with a tidbit on their plans for turning on the microphone."We'll start slowly, just turn it on and make sure it records sound, and we'll try and make some noise to make sure it's working. We'll try scraping ice with our robotic arm blade and we can bang a few pots or something. Then we'll listen just for the Mars sounds by themselves." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7680981.stm <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

brandbll · Oct 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>brandbull,From what I can gather the amount of energy required to heat the Tega ovens is so small (and if you will recall, they are well outboard of most of the mass of the lander) that they would provide minimal heat to save the circuit boards, which is what will likely kill Phoenix. Below ~ -150 C the circuit board material itself turns to glass...the phase change then is expected to crack the circuit traces on the boards. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> That's what i suspected.  I also wasn't sure if they had to open the ovens after heating for further analyzing.  I just figured, if your going to generate the heat, why waste it? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> You wanna talk some jive? I'll talk some jive. I'll talk some jive like you've never heard! </div>

anthmartian · Oct 25, 2008

I have been having some fun this morning going through the Phoenix archives. I put this together from images gathered by the robotic arm camera on sol 110. Its an animated Gif of soil being dropped, a still of the animation can be seen below.Animation I am still going and will post more results on my site throughout the weekend probably. You are welcome to click link at the foot of my post to see more from Phoenix at my site.   <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/1/0/e18b3285-f9e4-4f8a-804a-9faad84b8730.Medium.gif" alt="" />   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away.... Click Here And jump over to my site. </div>

3488 · Oct 26, 2008

Cheers Anth,Great bit of animation.Hi everyone, Also it's getting noticeably colder at the landing site. Sol 146 weather data. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/7/7f39e80a-7be5-4ab4-a758-be130e0255b8.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Sol 146. Maximum Temp: -40 C.Sol 146. Minimum Temp: -95 C.Pressure: 7.38 mb.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Oct 28, 2008

Have not had this view for quite a while now.Alt -16.74 deg Azm 126.06 deg Sol 151 05:17 HRS LMST.It's frosty. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/9/99d12d7e-1b3a-4e5e-b91f-83c1d027fa2f.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

nimbus · Oct 29, 2008

Andrew, any idea how much longer Phoenix has +-1 week? Or is that anyone's guess? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Oct 29, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Andrew, any idea how much longer Phoenix has +-1 week? Or is that anyone's guess? Posted by nimbus</DIV>I think people are quietly confident it will survive through to November 18th.  In this time it will have to run all the samples, which could be a bit tight.  From then until December 24th it will be   solar conjunction and it is anybody's guess whether signal will be reacquired after this.  If they do pick up a singal round about Christmas time, again it is anybody's guess  But the temperature will be falling rapidly, as will available power.  Round about Sol 240 the atmosphere will start to freeze and round about Sol  300 the sun drops below the horizon for the winter.  I am sure Andrew has the exact date.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Oct 29, 2008

The first conference abstracts with the preliminary results of the Phoenix mission have just been released.  They are for the American Geophysical Union Conference in December.  You can read them at http://www.agu.org/cgi-bin/sessions5?meeting=fm08&part=U11B&maxhits=400 and http://www.agu.org/cgi-bin/sessions5?meeting=fm08&part=U14A&maxhits=400There is some interesting stuff there, although a few are basically place holders.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Oct 29, 2008

How the mission planners hope to stretch out the power as long as possible.  http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/release.php?ArticleID=1918 Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

MeteorWayne · Oct 29, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>How the mission planners hope to stretch out the power as long as possible.  http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/release.php?ArticleID=1918Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV> A few excerpts:Later today, engineers will send commands to disable the first heater. That heater warms Phoenix's robotic arm, robotic-arm camera, and thermal and evolved-gas analyzer (TEGA), an instrument that bakes and sniffs Martian soil to assess volatile ingredients. Shutting down this heater is expected to save 250 watt-hours of power per Martian day. The Phoenix team has parked the robotic arm on a representative patch of Martian soil. No additional soil samples will be gathered. The thermal and electrical-conductivity probe (TECP), located on the wrist of the arm, has been inserted into the soil and will continue to measure soil temperature and conductivity, along with atmospheric humidity near the surface. The probe does not need a heater to operate and should continue to send back data for weeks. --- When power levels necessitate further action, Phoenix engineers will disable a second heater, which serves the lander's pyrotechnic initiation unit. The unit hasn't been used since landing, and disabling its heater is expected to add four to five days to the mission's lifetime. Following that step, engineers would disable a third heater, which warms Phoenix's main camera -- the Surface Stereo Imager --and the meteorological suite of instruments. Electronics that operate the meteorological instruments should generate enough heat on their own to keep most of those instruments and the camera functioning. In the final step, Phoenix engineers may turn off a fourth heater -- one of two survival heaters that warm the spacecraft and its batteries. This would leave one remaining survival heater to run out on its own. "At that point, Phoenix will be at the mercy of Mars," said Chris Lewicki of JPL, lead mission manger. Engineers are also preparing for solar conjunction, when the sun is directly between Earth and Mars. Between Nov. 28 and Dec. 13, Mars and the sun will be within two degrees of each other as seen from Earth, blocking radio transmission between the spacecraft and Earth. During that time, no commands will be sent to Phoenix, but daily downlinks from Phoenix will continue through NASA's Odyssey and Mars Reconnaissance orbiters. At this time, controllers can't predict whether the fourth heater would be disabled before or after conjunction. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Oct 29, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Andrew, any idea how much longer Phoenix has +-1 week? Or is that anyone's guess? Posted by nimbus</DIV>Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I think people are quietly confident it will survive through to November 18th.  In this time it will have to run all the samples, which could be a bit tight.  From then until December 24th it will be   solar conjunction and it is anybody's guess whether signal will be reacquired after this.  If they do pick up a singal round about Christmas time, again it is anybody's guess  But the temperature will be falling rapidly, as will available power.  Round about Sol 240 the atmosphere will start to freeze and round about Sol  300 the sun drops below the horizon for the winter.  I am sure Andrew has the exact date.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Hi Jon & Nimbus,I sure do.The Sun sets for the final time before Winter on Sunday 5th April 2009. That Sol the Sun will only rise for 12 minutes. The Sun will rise again on Monday 6th July 2009, again for only 12 minutes, though the days will lengthen fairly quickly on following sols.Phoenix is expected to be encased in CO2 ice from approx early February 2009 till mid November 2009, exact dates uncertain, owing to the prevailing weather conditions, but these times are fairly confident. Phoenix is expected to be encased in CO2 ice for some nine months minimum. The Winter Solstice will be on Friday 22nd May 2009.Dates of Martian Northern Seasons for the following year are below.Autumn Equinox: Friday 26th December 2008 / Boxing Day.Winter Solstice: Friday 22nd May 2009 (Phoenix expected to be encased in CO2 ice).Spring / Vernal Equinox: Tuesday 27th October 2009 (Phoenix expected to be encased in CO2 ice).Summer Solstice: Thursday 13th May 2010.Also thank you very much both to Jon & Wayne for the updates, very much appreciated indeed.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

nimbus · Oct 29, 2008

Thank you. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

halcyondays · Oct 29, 2008

OK, would anyone be willing to summarise in 10-20 lines in layman's terms exactly what has been learned/achieved by Phoenix to date ?  Many thanks indeed.

efron_24 · Oct 29, 2008

I must admit that i have a little tear in the eyes the robot arm has now stopped workingthe mission is coming to an end and it is asif we say farewell to a great friend <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

tanstaafl76 · Oct 29, 2008

I assume there isn't even a possibility of Phoenix being able to restart after winter due to the impact of extreme cold on the batteries and such?  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Oct 29, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> I assume there isn't even a possibility of Phoenix being able to restart after winter due to the impact of extreme cold on the batteries and such?  Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV> Vanishingly small is what I'd say.  They'll listen for an "I'm alive" signal come springtime but nobody expects to hear one.  Too bad there wasn't a way to include just 1 small RTG.  Would have been neat to see (camera and metrology station) the winter close in on the lander.  Oh well ............ <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

Phoenix Mars Lander Extended Mission. Sol 90+ & R.I.P Sol 157.

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