Phoenix Mars Lander Extended Mission. Sol 90+ & R.I.P Sol 157.

3488 · Sep 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Once you let the camel's nose under the tent ...   Since it is now known that precipitation can fall from Martian clouds at north polar locations and possibly reach the ground, perhaps it will be accepted the same can happen at other locations: (see for full-size :http://sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3999 ) From: Adsorption water driven processes on Mars. D. Möhlmann http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/doc.cfm?fobjectid=36779 See also: Reflectance of fog in Valles Marineris. A. Inada http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/doc.cfm?fobjectid=36724     Bob Clark Posted by exoscientist</DIV>Thank you very much Bob, very interesting articles as always from you. It is something worth thinking about. I can see that working both ways.The Vallis Marineris, lets say trapped clouds, as is clearly evident in the image you posted, shows the atmosphere there is saturated. I would say myself there is a good chance of precipitation from the those clouds.I wonder also, because of the slightly higher atmospheric pressure there, perhaps that may stifle precipitation (as on Earth precipitation is seldom seen in anticyclones or ridges, but is plentiful in cyclones & troughs). But then I suppose the pressure difference betweeen the Summit of Olympus Mons (approx 0.5 mb) & the depths of the Vallis Marineris or Coronae Scopulus (approx 9 mb), is less then that within a single weather system on Earth, so perhaps precipitation on Mars is more likely where ever the atmosphere is satuated.Perhaps Wayne could enlighten us!!!!!!Hi all,Related to the articles Bob Clark bought here,LIDAR Graphic showing VIRGA detected by Phoenix, back on Sol 99. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/7/2aff115a-063b-4ebb-8794-6d2279bc289f.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Below Earth VIRGA. Notice the similarity. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/5/991b7e6c-a315-47df-95b4-503a7bc95932.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Morning Temperature Trends from Phoenix in Scandia Colles. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/2/9386fac2-d448-4a5c-92c5-f925f64bb454.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Sep 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Once you let the camel's nose under the tent ...   Since it is now known that precipitation can fall from Martian clouds at north polar locations and possibly reach the ground, perhaps it will be accepted the same can happen at other locations: (see for full-size :http://sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3999 ) From: Adsorption water driven processes on Mars. D. Möhlmann http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/doc.cfm?fobjectid=36779 See also: Reflectance of fog in Valles Marineris. A. Inada http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/doc.cfm?fobjectid=36724     Bob Clark Posted by exoscientist</DIV>Bob you have posted the same post on at least two boards.  What are you implying here.  what camel's nose has been let under the tent?  I hope you are not implying that nobody has predicted precipitation, because they have.  There are scores of papers that deal with snowfall, both water and CO2, and its implications for surface chemistry, mineralogy, landforms, meteorlogy, topography, glaciers, and climate.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

phaze · Sep 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Does the term virga apply to snow, or is it just rain?Maybe we will have a white Christmas! Posted by jonclarke</DIV> Too bad Phoenix doesn't have a speaker it can broadcast from.  A little Bing Crosby rolling over the Martian landscape as Phoenix becomes encased in ice would certainly be captivating!

exoscientist · Oct 1, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Bob you have posted the same post on at least two boards.  What are you implying here.  what camel's nose has been let under the tent?  I hope you are not implying that nobody has predicted precipitation, because they have.  There are scores of papers that deal with snowfall, both water and CO2, and its implications for surface chemistry, mineralogy, landforms, meteorlogy, topography, glaciers, and climate.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>   Actually I have mentioned it on 4 or 5 boards, with more to come. People have also predicted liquid water in small, ephemeral amounts on Mars in respected science journals, but that doesn't contradict the fact that the general consensus continues to be that liquid water is impossible on Mars even in small localized amounts. The idea that there could be precipitation from these clouds/fogs above the Valles Marineris seen in this image was met with the response that the amounts of water vapor in Mars atmosphere are too low to allow precipitation. The density of the clouds/fogs in the Valles Marineris image appears much larger than that of the clouds seen so far above the Phoenix site. Then it is even likelier there is precipitation from these near equatorial clouds.  Another example of dense, low lying clouds above a near equatorial site from a Viking orbiter image: <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/4/78c79efb-a60a-405e-9481-fa05bf73278a.Medium.gif" alt="" /> From:Martian Clouds. http://www.solarviews.com/eng/marscld.htm  That cloud precipitation is actually wide spread on Mars will have major implications for the accurate understanding of the water cycle on Mars, which has been largely discounted in most models of Mars hydrology.      Bob Clark   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Oct 1, 2008

This is partly the reason why there need to be as many landers on the Martian surface in as many different locations. All preferably carrying similar scientific payloads so we get like for like results from different areas, all the way from the summit of Olympus Mons, depths of Coronae Scopulus North pole & South pole with many points between.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Oct 1, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Actually I have mentioned it on 4 or 5 boards, with more to come. People have also predicted liquid water in small, ephemeral amounts on Mars in respected science journals, but that doesn't contradict the fact that the general consensus continues to be that liquid water is impossible on Mars even in small localized amounts. The idea that there could be precipitation from these clouds/fogs above the Valles Marineris seen in this image was met with the response that the amounts of water vapor in Mars atmosphere are too low to allow precipitation. The density of the clouds/fogs in the Valles Marineris image appears much larger than that of the clouds seen so far above the Phoenix site. Then it is even likelier there is precipitation from these near equatorial clouds.  Another example of dense, low lying clouds above a near equatorial site from a Viking orbiter image:  From:Martian Clouds.http://www.solarviews.com/eng/marscld.htm That cloud precipitation is actually wide spread on Mars will have major implications for the accurate understanding of the water cycle on Mars, which has been largely discounted in most models of Mars hydrology.      Bob Clark   Posted by exoscientist</DIV>Sorry Bob, that is a straw man argument.  In press releases and popular statements that might be true, but every mars researcher I know is well aware that that precipiation occurs in winter at high latitudes every winter at the present obliquity and that moisture is empemerally possible in many places.What you are saying is a complete mispresentation of the facts.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

exoscientist · Oct 1, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Sorry Bob, that is a straw man argument.  In press releases and popular statements that might be true, but every mars researcher I know is well aware that that precipiation occurs in winter at high latitudes every winter at the present obliquity and that moisture is empemerally possible in many places.What you are saying is a complete mispresentation of the facts.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>  Oh, really? I'm sure then that all the readers on this forum can now write confidently to any and all Mars scientists and state that it is a known fact that liquid water in small amounts occurs in wide spread locations on Mars.  Therefore since microbes would only need microscopically thin layers of water to survive on which persists perhaps only for a few minutes seasonally, it is possible that microbes survive in widespread locations on Mars.  And also confidently state that since sulfates and carbonates can form in just minutes in small amounts in the presence of liquid water that both carbonates and sulfates are currently forming in wide spread locations on Mars.    Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

efron_24 · Oct 1, 2008

It's great what we are discovering What are the follow up robots going to Mars ?What will be the next machines ? will some go to the poles to learn more ?It would be good if a double robot goes to some placewith one listening while the other makes noise.. than you can 'hear' how the atmosphere works.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

franontanaya · Oct 1, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I'm sure then that all the readers on this forum can now write confidently to any and all Mars scientists and state that it is a known fact that liquid water in small amounts occurs in wide spread locations on Mars.</DIV>I was thinking that too. I was sold the idea that Mars was bone dry, but looking at gullies, patterned terrain, pH, clouds, carbonates and so on, that doesn't hold water anymore. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Oct 1, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I was thinking that too. I was sold the idea that Mars was bone dry, but looking at gullies, patterned terrain, pH, clouds, carbonates and so on, that doesn't hold water anymore. Posted by franontanaya</DIV>Hi franontanaya,I think you'll find that Mars is bone dry now. There is water vapour for sure & ice, but certainly no liquid water. The gullies & patterned terrain can be formed by other processes, such a dry land collapses, etc.In the past, yes Mars was a lot wetter, now it seems intermittently rather than long term, though of course more research is needed. Yes seeing the clouds scud across like that, as well as those from Mars Pathfinder & MER B Opportunity, are signs that the atmosphere does become saturated & humidity levels change for sure.Hi everyone,Interesting graph just appeared, showing how sunlight comes & goes at the Phoenix site. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/7/7/97a18b6e-ea4e-4fd9-8785-652b4a6260b4.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  The dates I have already mentioned are spot on. It looks like Phoenix will be encased in CO2 ice from about Sol 240 (Monday 2nd February 2009 aka Groundhog / Candlemas Day) to about Sol 540 (approx Friday 20th November 2009), well past the Spring Equinox in late October 2009. Looks like the LAZARUS program is a moot point after being encased in CO2 ice for 300 sols or maybe more. I certainly did not expect the CO2 ice to encase Phoenix for so long. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

brandbll · Oct 1, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Oh, really? I'm sure then that all the readers on this forum can now write confidently to any and all Mars scientists and state that it is a known fact that liquid water in small amounts occurs in wide spread locations on Mars.  Therefore since microbes would only need microscopically thin layers of water to survive on which persists perhaps only for a few minutes seasonally, it is possible that microbes survive in widespread locations on Mars.  And also confidently state that since sulfates and carbonates can form in just minutes in small amounts in the presence of liquid water that both carbonates and sulfates are currently forming in wide spread locations on Mars.    Bob Clark Posted by exoscientist</DIV> Yes, but until they have definitive proof isn't that all just really a hypothesis, hence what Andrew said? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> You wanna talk some jive? I'll talk some jive. I'll talk some jive like you've never heard! </div>

franontanaya · Oct 1, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There is water vapour for sure & ice, but certainly no liquid water. The gullies & patterned terrain can be formed by other processes</DIV>See? That's what I mean. Even though we haven't yet went there, sniffed them, touched them, tasted them, it's determined that in any case 'Mars is dry an certainly there's no liquid water --unless there's proof of the contrary'.The real answer is: we still don't know which hypothesis is true. In a Heisenbergian sense, Mars is currently both dry and wet, until we thoroughly observe it and find out. We waited until Phoenix went there to say that definitively there's water ice at Mars, so, why it is already set in stone that Mars is dry?The atmospheric pressure alone has been always a poor argument since you don't need very strong soil crusts or chemical layers to hold half an atmosphere. For example, we have got there half a foot of clay-like dust with salts and perchlorates, which upper layer spends frozen half a martian year. You get pure ice from snow on top of sticky soil on top of ice in contact with antifreezers. Drop a stone here or there to transfer heat from the surface to the subsurface ice and, ecco, watch it melt while the pure ice is still frozen. It doesn't require rocket science.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

brandbll · Oct 1, 2008

I am really excited to see what kinds of sounds this Phoenix microphone.  It will be interesting to hear wind sounds because i remeber a discussion about how sound waves will project differently in the thinner atmosphere.   One question though, in the article on SDC it said it was a unique thing in that it was the first attempt at such a thing.  Is the article referring to Mars, or all lander operations ever?  Because IIRC i thought Hyugens had made a microphone recording, although it didn't sound like much since it was during the landing.  Maybe i'm confusing it with something else.  Personally though, i'm glad they waited to turn it on until the craft had landed, and think the sound should be much more interesting while waiting still at the ground level. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> You wanna talk some jive? I'll talk some jive. I'll talk some jive like you've never heard! </div>

JonClarke · Oct 1, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Oh, really? I'm sure then that all the readers on this forum can now write confidently to any and all Mars scientists and state that it is a known fact that liquid water in small amounts occurs in wide spread locations on Mars.  Therefore since microbes would only need microscopically thin layers of water to survive on which persists perhaps only for a few minutes seasonally, it is possible that microbes survive in widespread locations on Mars. </DIV>This possibility is already well known to astrobiologists interested in Mars and everyone I know who is intereted in the Martian surface.  So it would be a waste of time.  Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>And also confidently state that since sulfates and carbonates can form in just minutes in small amounts in the presence of liquid water that both carbonates and sulfates are currently forming in wide spread locations on Mars.    Bob Clark Posted by exoscientist </DIV>I have no idea what you mean by this and I study salts and water on earth for a living and stuy them on Mars for a hobby.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Oct 1, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi franontanaya,I think you'll find that Mars is bone dry now. There is water vapour for sure & ice, but certainly no liquid water. The gullies & patterned terrain can be formed by other processes, such a dry land collapses, etc Posted by 3488</DIV>Hi AndrewPatterned ground and gullies are descriptive landforms, they can form by a range of processes.Some gullies do form by dry flow - we see them on the Moon.  But many martian gullies are sinuous and have cut and fill channels.  No process other than flowing liquid can form these, as far as we know.The surface crusts and weathering textures we see at many places require ephemeral moisture to form.Temperature and pressure models of martian surface conditions indicate that liquid water can be present at least briefly in many areas on Mars every year.  Whether it does exist at  these places is another story, as they may be too dry.The patterned ground we have seen requires expansion and contraction,and does  not indicate iquid water.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

franontanaya · Oct 1, 2008

Sorry, this is already off topic. But talking about gullies, there's this HiRISE image I bookmarked from a year or so ago: <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/9/6c7d931c-5f8d-445a-999b-c1085175e9b6.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_003498_1090   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Oct 2, 2008

Sol 116, Phoenix RAC LEDs enhanced colour image.The below image was taken by the SSI through R G B filters. The corresponding LEDs were illuminated to match the SSI filter, then the image was conbined giving the impreesion that all three sets of LEDs were on at the same time, when in fact it was three episodes one each for Red, Green & Blue.<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/13/80f09974-dca7-443f-bdf7-6b3ac0f00f79.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Sol 116, Phoenix RAC LEDs True Colour image. The below image was taken by the SSI through R G B filters as above, but not enhanced, giving a human eye view. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/13/98e1247f-7d35-4873-ada4-1196b2d80edc.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

exoscientist · Oct 4, 2008

Also important for the acceptance of snowfall on Mars is the possibility of snowfall being a possible explanation of the unexpectedly high amounts of water/ice by the GRS readings even in some near equatorial regions on Mars. This becomes especially important when you take into account the fact that a seasonal cloud belt has been known to form around the equator on Mars since Viking: Figure 2: Tharsis morning cloud and afternoon clouds on March 6 (upper row) and March 7 (lower row) in 1995 (Ls = 68&deg

... <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/9/a9f49d93-bc0c-4ef5-99f7-81edd517bb7a.Medium.gif" alt="" /> Figure 6: Low latitude cloud belt in the Arabia, Amazonis and Chryse regions in 1997 and 1999... <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/2/058c5d7e-6fe4-44a4-9239-fae3384746f6.Medium.gif" alt="" /> From: Diurnal variation of Martian water-ice clouds in Tharsis region of the low latitude cloud belt: Observations in 1995-1999 apparitions. A&A 384, 678-688 (2002) http://www.aanda.org/index.php?option=article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/aa/full/2002/11/aa1332/aa1332.right.htmlNote that high water/ice amounts were seen by GRS in both Tharsis and Arabia. Now remember the images I showed of dense clouds over Valles Marineris and Noctis Labyrinthus? High water/ice amounts were found by GRS in these areas as well: MARS ODYSSEY NEUTRON SPECTROMETER WATER-EQUIVALENT HYDROGEN: COMPARISON WITH GLACIAL LANDFORMS ON THARSIS. R. C. Elphic, W. C. Feldman1, T. H. Prettyman, R. L. Tokar, D. J. Lawrence, J. W. Head, III, S. Maurice "The western slopes of Olympus Mons, and the Tharsis Montes have higher WEH abundance than the eastern slopes. There are also en- hanced WEH abundances centered on Noctis Labyrin- thus and western Valles Marineris." http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/1805.pdf     Bob Clark   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Oct 4, 2008

Thanks Bob.Have you checked the MRO HiRISE on the lates Deuteronilus Mensae? I think that you will be very interested. I'm sure Jon Clark has.Merging flow forms in Deuteronilus Mensae.Wonderful MRO HiRISE image released this week. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/7/4/f7130bb5-b37f-412c-8458-d6b8b5c7c665.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Hi All,Back to Phoenix. Very large dust devil in the afternoon of Sol 127. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/0/895eb851-829c-47ac-803e-3f721100c1e1.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Oct 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Also important for the acceptance of snowfall on Mars is the possibility of snowfall being a possible explanation of the unexpectedly high amounts of water/ice by the GRS readings even in some near equatorial regions on Mars. Posted by exoscientist</DIV>Clouds do not always mean precipitation.The possible equitorial ice deposits on Mars are very limited, to the western sides of the high mountains. They have been known and generally accepted as such for near six years.While light current snowfalls can't be ruled out, actual accumulation would require heavy snowfalls.  These are  are more likely the during the last high oliquity episode when snowfall would have been as common at the equator as it now is at the poles.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

exoscientist · Oct 5, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Actually I have mentioned it on 4 or 5 boards, with more to come. People have also predicted liquid water in small, ephemeral amounts on Mars in respected science journals, but that doesn't contradict the fact that the general consensus continues to be that liquid water is impossible on Mars even in small localized amounts. The idea that there could be precipitation from these clouds/fogs above the Valles Marineris seen in this image was met with the response that the amounts of water vapor in Mars atmosphere are too low to allow precipitation. The density of the clouds/fogs in the Valles Marineris image appears much larger than that of the clouds seen so far above the Phoenix site. Then it is even likelier there is precipitation from these near equatorial clouds.  Another example of dense, low lying clouds above a near equatorial site from a Viking orbiter image:  From:Martian Clouds.http://www.solarviews.com/eng/marscld.htm  That cloud precipitation is actually wide spread on Mars will have major implications for the accurate understanding of the water cycle on Mars, which has been largely discounted in most models of Mars hydrology.      Bob Clark   Posted by exoscientist</DIV> See also the descriptions here: ------------------------------------------- NASA SP-441: VIKING ORBITER VIEWS OF MARS -------------------------------------------- - THE ATMOSPHERE - "Early Morning Clouds in the Tharsis Montes and Valles Marineris Region. Ascraeus Mons and Pavonis Mons are prominently displayed in this mosaic, and dense cloud blankets cling to their northern slopes. High cirrus clouds lie to the west of Tharsis, and waves are visible in the clouds surrounding the peaks. Bands of clouds appearing to have a cellular structure extend north from the canyon, and the areas within and immediately surrounding the chasm exhibit water-ice fogs. [211-5049; 5°S, 105°W]" "Early Morning Surface Fog. The presence of morning fogs in some crater and channel bottoms is a Viking discovery with possible implications for the future biological exploration of Mars. These early morning views of the Memnonia region were taken one-half hour apart using a violet filter to enhance the contrast of the condensates. The areas marked by arrows are noticeably brighter in the later picture. The fogs indicate specific spots where water is exchanged, probably on a daily cycle, between the surface and the atmosphere. The surface and lower air layers in this region become unusually cold at night because of the thermal properties of the surface. When the surface warms in the morning, it seems that a small amount of water vapor-estimated to be about one-millionth of a meter thick if liquefied is driven off; this vapor recondenses in the atmosphere, which warms more slowly, to form a ground fog of ice particles. [P17487; 13°S,147° W]" "Early Morning Clouds in Noctis Labyrinthus. Condensate clouds are seen here in early morning in the canyons of Labyrinthus Noctis, which lies at the western end of the equatorial Valles Marineris system. This picture, which covers about 90 000 km2, was made by combining three frames of the same field taken through violet, green, and red filters. Although these clouds lie mainly down inside the canyons, they evidently extend above the walls and spill over some of the surrounding plateau. Like most condensate clouds in the Martian troposphere, they are believed to be composed of water-ice crystals. [P18114, 9°S, 95°W]" http://history.nasa.gov/SP-441/ch12.htm    Such sites would be an ideal place for a future lander, including MSL, particularly during the seasonal period where such low lying clouds/fogs are known to be present. Here's one report that suggested Memnonia as a landing site for MSL because of geologically recent landforms suggesting liquid water flow: NORTHERN MEMNONIA AREA: A POTENTIAL SITE FOR “MODERN” GROUND WATER. Ronald Greeley and Ruslan Kuzmin http://web99.arc.nasa.gov/~vgulick/MSLS99_Wkshp/Greeley_Kuzmin_Memnonia_abs.pdf This report also gives Memnonia as one of the prospects for a future landing site: Possible Martian Landing Sites to be Considered for Future European Exploration Missions. P. Martin and M. Castillo, ESA - European Space and Astronomy Centre, PO Box 78, E-28691 Villanueva de la Cañada (Madrid),Spain; ****@sciops.esa.int. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/1794.pdf Memnonia is also an area of high water content as indicated by GRS, which is also consistent with the frequent low lying clouds/fogs over the area: WATER CONTENT IN THE ARABIA SOIL. I. G. Mitrofanov , W. Boynton , M. Litvak , A. Kozyrev , A. Sanin 1 and R. S. Saunders http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2006/pdf/1643.pdf    Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

franontanaya · Oct 7, 2008

comic interlude.- I hope they didn't use tap water for MECA: http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/oct2008/2008-10-06-01.asp <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Oct 7, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>comic interlude.-I hope they didn't use tap water for MECA: http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/oct2008/2008-10-06-01.asp Posted by franontanaya</DIV>You can find traces of everything in tap water if you look hard enough.  In the late 19th and early 20th century the US imported large quantities of Chilean nitrates as fertilizers, these contain significant amounts of naturally occuring perchlorate.  Despite the hype about "rocket fuel" in most cases this is the probable source of perchlorate in US water.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

MeteorWayne · Oct 8, 2008

SDC article on upcoming demise of Phoenix.http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/081006-tw-phoenix-dying.htmlKind of ironic that a creature/mission arisen from the ashes will end it's life as a giant ice cube

<div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

centsworth_II · Oct 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>SDC article on upcoming demise of Phoenix. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>The descriptions I've seen talk of a meter or two of frozen CO2 covering the Phoenix site.  The below quote from the article seems to leave open the possibility that the layer will not be very thick at all.  It's hard to follow since it's not easy to tell when it's water ice, CO2 ice, or both being referred to. I guess MRO images of Phoenix during the winter will answer that question once and for all -- at least for this Martian year.  "Right now the frost that is forming is all water ice because it is not yet cold enough at Phoenix's latitude for carbon dioxide ice to form, though it eventually will. Whether the frost will come as a thin coating or a thick sheet, like Mars' polar ice caps, isn't known. "We're not sure how much CO2 will deposit at this latitude — most of it is on the polar cap," [Phoenix meteorological team member Peter Taylor of York University in Toronto, Canada] said. Taylor tends to think the frost won't build up as much as at higher latitudes. "We'll see little flakes of ice, we'll see ice crystals and frost, but it won't be [like] the ice that freezes on your windscreen on a winter's morning," he said." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Phoenix Mars Lander Extended Mission. Sol 90+ & R.I.P Sol 157.

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