Phoenix surface mission

MeteorWayne · Jun 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>this is great!  I wonder if the overnight temp change helped the soil go through?  It sounded like they had givin up on this sample ever going in the oven. Posted by thor06</DIV> I suspect (and was later confirmed as a hypothesis) that perhaps moisture has sublimated away being in the sunlight and warmth in the daytime.Therefore it flows better now. It's possible. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

Simultaneity · Jun 11, 2008

At the risk of sounding stupid and in light of the present theory, I'll repost: If Snow Queen is ice, could we expect a measureable (visually) change due to sublimation during the course of the mission?  Have any idea how fast exposed ice will sublimate on the surface?

MeteorWayne · Jun 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>At the risk of sounding stupid and in light of the present theory, I'll repost: If Snow Queen is ice, could we expect a measureable (visually) change due to sublimation during the course of the mission?  Have any idea how fast exposed ice will sublimate on the surface? Posted by Simultaneity</DIV> Do you mean Snow Queen or Holy Cow (the white stuff under the lander) I would suspect if any of this is ice of any kind, it will definately be sublimating, so over 90 or more days, there surely would be some visible changes,Of course, that also would apply to damp salts as well <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif" border="0" alt="Laughing" title="Laughing" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

Simultaneity · Jun 11, 2008

I meant Snow Queen.  Holy Cow may be too far away and too featureless to measure small changes with the arm camera.  Of course I’m assuming the changes will be small…Of course, that also would apply to damp salts as well Ah, yes.  Point taken.

thor06 · Jun 11, 2008

There were a lot of questions, most good.  The guy from Albany should have just asked about the power levels.   I love the mental image of the team dancing and hooting to "Shake your booty".MW do you have scribble notes going?  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 11, 2008

Scribblenotes part 1:I need to break it into two parts to get this news out.Willam Boynton TEGA Co-Investigator said they were running what might have been their last try at vibrating oven 4's screen, the 7th attempt. It terminated early, usually a symptom of trouble, but in this case it was good news, the oven was full. It was programmed to terminate the shaking if that happened. Apparently it came down very quickly, about 5 seconds after the shaking stated (What was the frequency? No reporter thought to ask that question. I'm SHOCKED <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-surprised.gif" border="0" alt="Surprised" title="Surprised" /> So it's full. Since the result was unexpected, they hadn't uploaded door closing sequence, so that will be done tomorrow, then the day after, they will fire it up. Next news conference is Friday, probably too soon for TEGA results. But by then they should have pictures of samples in the microscope.Back shortly with more....BTW, images are color of Dodo and Baby Bear, and diagram of TEGA instrument, which was not referred to. MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There were a lot of questions, most good.  The guy from Albany should have just asked about the power levels.   I love the mental image of the team dancing and hooting to "Shake your booty".MW do you have scribble notes going?  Posted by thor06</DIV> Editorial by Wayne, not officially part of scribblnotes. I thought most of the questions stunk.It's terribly obvious to me that most reporters other than the first few, have not been following the mission, or at least not very closely. Some didn't know even the basics about Phoenix, and others ask questions that WE know the answer to, because we pay attention. Such as how long was the interval during the shake test? It's 20 seconds. It's was in the caption under the released images. It's been posted here. There were 3 great questions that I heard (i.e not repetative, not ignorant, not "getting your name on the air"), but were actually exploring reasonable interpretations of the current data instead of sleeping.Another half dozen were good questions; clarifying or refining previous discussions in a useful way)Just as an experiment, I might go back and listen to the conference when it's posted to rate the questions.Sorry to be a stickler, but I have a news background, and know my way fairly well (enough to be dangerous) around astronomy. I've had to replace the pad where I thunk my head against the wall when I hear worthless questions.Unfortunately, that's not uncommon in much science reporting...sigh. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There were a lot of questions, most good.  The guy from Albany should have just asked about the power levels.   I love the mental image of the team dancing and hooting to "Shake your booty".MW do you have scribble notes going?  Posted by thor06</DIV> By the way, that question rated only "IDIOT" in my notes. I didn't bother with the question or answer, because it showed total ignorance about how a spacecraft functions. Actually, the response was far more enlightening than the question, because Peter took it in a useful direction. That wasn't a result of the question, but of Peter's PR skills. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

abq_farside · Jun 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Editorial by Wayne, not officially part of scribblnotes. I thought most of the questions stunk.It's terribly obvious to me that most reporters other than the first few, have not been following the mission, or at least not very closely. Some didn't know even the basics about Phoenix, and others ask questions that WE know the answer to, because we pay attention. Such as how long was the interval during the shake test? It's 20 seconds. It's was in the caption under the released images. It's been posted here. There were 3 great questions that I heard (i.e not repetative, not ignorant, not "getting your name on the air"), but were actually exploring reasonable interpretations of the current data instead of sleeping.Another half dozen were good questions; clarifying or refining previous discussions in a useful way)Just as an experiment, I might go back and listen to the conference when it's posted to rate the questions.Sorry to be a stickler, but I have a news background, and know my way fairly well (enough to be dangerous) around astronomy. I've had to replace the pad where I thunk my head against the wall when I hear worthless questions.Unfortunately, that's not uncommon in much science reporting...sigh. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Did we ever find out if there is a way that we can ask questions?  Since this board has quite a few intelligent people on it that I'm sure would love to chip in, I'm bet we can come up with some questions for each new conference.  That would be interesting to hear.."And now a couple of questions from the SDC community...." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Don't let who you are keep you from becoming who you want to be! </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I meant Snow Queen.  Holy Cow may be too far away and too featureless to measure small changes with the arm camera.  Of course I’m assuming the changes will be small…Of course, that also would apply to damp salts as well Ah, yes.  Point taken. Posted by Simultaneity</DIV> In either case point to you as well. I suspect over 90 days of summer, and exposed ice (water or CO2) is going to work on going away real fast. Enough to be noticible in any ice feature at all. For damp salts the changes would be more subtle I suspect. However, I'm not really up on the exact phase diagrams at 8.5 mb atmospheric pressure at -30 to - 80C! Especially, since at this point we don't know for sure what the salts might be, how hygroscopic they are....we're still gathering the first data in an environment like this ever on Mars.Lots to learn! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 11, 2008

Scribblenotes Part 2:The rest of the news conference.Peter Smith talked about the soil a bit, how there's a thin crust that the landing pads broke through, but from scooping below that the soil really want's to clump. Not only to itself, but to everything else as well. So much so, we've been unable to create an analog for it. Some is very fine. Remember the Yeti image when they pressed the scoop down in the soil? It showed seams and srew heads. Should be very interesting when the material makes it to the microscope.This additional info came as a result of a question by Ann ??? of the Arizona Republic, one of the 3 great questions.The microscope has different substrates that the sample is dumped on (and it's a decent size). One is just a bin (what material?-MW), one is magnetic, and one is silica or silicon, or silicone. DIdn't hear it clearly, I will follow up on those issues.Other good QA's provided this: Tega results, probably 5 days to run for overall picture, few weeks for detailed analysis. Oven size is ~ 2mm x 1 cmQ: How soon to ice? A: 3-4 weeksQ: Next sample? A: Probably from right side of accessable area near the top of a polygonQ: Will you take smaller scoops? No, just sift it out slowerQ: Have you been able to create an analog for soil? A PS: No, lots of guys scratching their beards. There's lots of variety on earth, we'll find one. Knowing what it's made of will help, that's what TEGA is for.Q: Any possibilty of hydrazine contamination causing the clumping (My Question of the day!)A: PS We don't think so. The raw products would have reacted completely, byproducts are nitrogen and ammonia. If they are part of the mix, we will detect it in Wet Chem experiment; it's sensitive to them.Q: Skipping wet chemistry lab this time? A: Yes, we only have 4 of them.Next news conference is scheduled to be a live on on NASA TV at 3PM EDT on Friday the 13th.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 11, 2008

Cheers Wayne,Reposting as I seemed to have a bit of trouble. Below are today's images from today's conference.Colour image of Dodo & Baby Bear. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/1/0/a1538226-70e6-416c-9095-6203866246e7.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Schematic of TEGA with oven 4. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/5/5018169c-a1d0-428a-8582-2d007b51ca3b.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Cheers Wayne,Reposting as I seemed to have a bit of trouble. Below are today's images from today's conference.Colour image of Dodo & Baby Bear.Schematic of TEGA with oven 4.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> Looked good to me last time you posted.This time too

<div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

h2ouniverse · Jun 11, 2008

Great news that they succeeded in filling the oven...(yes!)Can't wait until friday

3488 · Jun 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Looked good to me last time you posted.This time too

Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Cheers Wayne, at my end it looked messy & left an enormous gap at the top. Also horror of all horrors, I tried to download another image & it crashed out. Fortunately it's OK now. If I don't have image download capabilities, I'm screwed!!!!!!!!!! I have an enormous collection of solar system imagery fron a great many missions, it would be disasterous if I cannot expand & share it.Just rebooted & it's OK. Cheers Wayne.I will be back later with more stuff.Excellent notes as always Wayne. Thank you very much. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/15/ebf0c404-7a9f-441c-9fda-dc1fde462cb9.Medium.gif" alt="" /> I think we should publish something, between us, we have this mission very well covered. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Jun 11, 2008

Did the vibration finally do the trick?The the load finally exceed the shear strength of the soil?Did whatever was holding particle together disappear allowing it to slide through?Anyway, we have a full oven and should see some results in a few days!Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Did the vibration finally do the trick?The the load finally exceed the shear strength of the soil?Did whatever was holding particle together disappear allowing it to slide through?Anyway, we have a full oven and should see some results in a few days!Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV> Good questions, Jon. Of course they don't know for sure...at this point anything would be speculation. But all of a sudden, the whole oven filled almost instantly. 'I suspect it dried out, but that's speculation!When the TEGA results come back, they'll have a better idea, I suspect. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 11, 2008

Better weather report for Sol 14.<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/14/60b16e35-8b84-4f8d-8e65-7906dd9d8a96.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Getting colder. Sol 14 Max -35 C / -31 F. Sunny with dust haze. Sol 14 Min -80 C / -112 F. Sunny with dust haze. Pressure: 8.4 millibars. Wind: 14 KPH / 8.7 MPH from the East.  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

exoscientist · Jun 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I suspect (and was later confirmed as a hypothesis) that perhaps moisture has sublimated away being in the sunlight and warmth in the daytime.Therefore it flows better now. It's possible. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>  If it were literally moisture, then the correct terminology would be "evaportated away". The temperature and pressure conditions there are within the range of liquid water brines at least temporarily. Maybe the difficulty in modeling this problem is the resistance to seeing this as a legitimate possibility. If it were small amounts of liquid water even in the form of brines then that would fit perfectly since the small clumpy particles would be small amounts of mud.     Bob Clark  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

efron_24 · Jun 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> If it were literally moisture, then the correct terminology would be "evaportated away". The temperature and pressure conditions there are within the range of liquid water brines at least temporarily. Maybe the difficulty in modeling this problem is the resistance to seeing this as a legitimate possibility. If it were small amounts of liquid water even in the form of brines then that would fit perfectly since the small clumpy particles would be small amounts of mud.     Bob Clark  Posted by exoscientist</DIV> Yes. Bob.. that is what it looks like.. mud.I had the same idea.. but we will soon find out when the oven results come in. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

jumpjack2 · Jun 12, 2008

A long time ago I ha da trip to mount Etna, in Italy.I was surprised discovering the nature of the terrain: during winter, it often snows (Etna is 3342 m high); but also often after snowing, Etna releases clouds of ashes and sand, which completely cover the snow, making the mountain appear black again. Then it snows agai. Then a new sand cloud, and so on...The result is a multiple stratification of sand&snow, which reaches several meters height! <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/10/2f79f38f-df90-4920-aadf-8b94314c0d5c.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Once Phoenix will reach the planned digging dept (around 50 cm), I guess it will find something similar to Etna soil: a sandwich of dust and snow. Even if it is not "water snow" but "CO2 snow", I guess very low temperatures would allow snow being preserved from a winter to the next. Here below you see a tipical Etna panorama: a dusty plan, which just looks as normal terrain... but which si NOT normal at all! It's very weak, been made up of above described  layers. Every time a big stone falls from a crater, it creates an hole: <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/9/beed2ad9-8f89-4929-b9f7-b584190535da.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Doesn't it look quite similar to Phoenix trench? <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" />

JonClarke · Jun 12, 2008

I envy your trip to Etna!You can get all sorts of strange landforms when you get interlayed ice and soil deposits. And you are right, some of the cracks between the polygons do look as if they have collpased.  We are probably too far south to get permanant CO2 depositss, but there are CO2 frosts, and maybe some of them get buried by wind blown material.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

exoscientist · Jun 12, 2008

Here's the NASA press release announcing it:NASA's Phoenix Lander has an Oven Full of Martian Soil. http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080611.html Here's a Space.com article discussing it in more detail:Mars Soil Sample Finally Delivered to Phoenix Instrument. By Andrea Thompson Senior Writer posted: 11 June 2008 03:21 pm ET http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/080611-phoenix-mission-update.html There is a link to the audio teleconference on Wednesday, June 11th on the NASA press release page that discussed the successful filling.  It is mentioned during the teleconference that the soil showed very fine imprints from the underside of the scoop. They suggested the soil was like a very fine powder, like flour. But what was confusing was that if fine powder why did it not fall through the sieving grid. And why did it stick to the smooth surfaces of the lander?  Later it's mentioned that their experiments with different soil analogues still haven't duplicated the stickiness as seen at the Phoenix site. There was "something missing", they said.  That the soil sample was able to pass through the sieve after being exposed in the Sun on top of the lander for some time led to the suggestion that water/ice in the sample evaporated/sublimated off.  Perhaps the "something missing" in their simulants is liquid water.  Note also that mud would also leave fine detail of the imprints from the scoop while at the same time being sticky, unlike the fine powder explanation.       Bob Clark  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I envy your trip to Etna!You can get all sorts of strange landforms when you get interlayed ice and soil deposits. And you are right, some of the cracks between the polygons do look as if they have collpased.  We are probably too far south to get permanant CO2 depositss, but there are CO2 frosts, and maybe some of them get buried by wind blown material.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Cheers JumpJack2. I too am a bit envious of you trip to Etna, though I have been to Vesuvius & to the volcanoes on the Canary Islands. Etna is definately on my must do list along with The Azores, Cape Verde Islands, back to the Canary Islands & Mount St Helens. In fact, I would expect nothing else. Layering should be expected, as this area has four very distinct seasons, so ice would alternate with insulating dust & Epson Salts / Kierserite. Interesting comparison with Etna though, very well spotted. I wonder if windblown ash has made it this far north from the Tharsis complex further south? Phoenix is actually near enough due north of Olympus Mons, though the gigantic shield lies 50 degrees further south.Hopefully when I get time to really examine the images returned thus far, I too should be able to make some interesting observations.Hi all,A bit more imagery from Sol 16. Sol 17 is a let down so far, just a few fuzzy images of the scoop, with a bit of dirt & of a few components, nothing really Mars related, unless the Sol 17 download is not complete??Sol 16. Alt -16 deg Azm 129 deg.  Interesting collection of small stones & rocks showing differing stages of erosion. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/5/60528f51-3e9f-4f86-a572-be227f43349e.Medium.jpg" alt="" />http://www.photodump.com/Anonymous/140.2 azm -17 deg.html Sol 15, Alt -17 deg  Azm 140.2 deg. Small stones, displaying some stone sorting & some heavage in the martian tundra of Scandia Colles. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/15/ac17555e-64a6-4e5a-bf5b-2d10a79feb34.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol 16. Azm 278.1 degrees (WNW). Shame the arm obscures part of the view. The Robotic Arm Camera can be clearly seen. Some hilly terrain, part of the Scandia Colles formation, is prominent on the horizon. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/1/10/71a62868-753c-45a8-ba18-04b702b04b12.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol 16. Azm 131 degrees, 4 degrees north of SE. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/11/4ab30a53-14fe-476b-8b2c-5b5a7883056b.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

shawneric · Jun 12, 2008

Someone asked about questions you can ask. There is this on the site.http://fawkes1.lpl.arizona.edu/ask.phpI used to work for the forest service fighting fires and we were almost sent to St Helens. I have seen it erupt the first time and a couple times since then. Oregon where I live, has some of the most examples of vulcansim outside of Hawaii in central oregon near bend. They trained with the moon buggy here at lava lands.

Its something like 6 thousand square miles of lava with volcanos all over the place and collapsed caldera's like Paulina Lake and Crater lake.http://www.flickr.com/photos/jolson/48296840/ Looking forward to the results of the oven and gases.

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