Phoenix surface mission

abq_farside · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> New pictures up: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/index.htmlClumpy soil!  And spring answers!   Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV> So it was from the bio-barrier as some had speculated. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Don't let who you are keep you from becoming who you want to be! </div>

3488 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Running late.Next TV 3PM Wed Link: http://www.nasa.gov/news/media/newsaudio/index.html Posted ny MeteorWayne</DIV>Cheers Wayne, I will be here for that. I assume tomorrow is another teleconference?Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> New pictures up: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/index.html Clumpy soil!  And spring answers!   Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV>Cheers tanstaafl76. Lets hope that soon we get some updates about Mars. A lot of recent news is about pictures of Phoenix, taken by Phoenix. I see the soil has slumped on the TEGA & some did appear to fall through the door. I wonder if any did get past the sieve into the oven?Also its also good to see that spring issue to put to rest, a restraining spring on the Biobarrier. I thought that it might had been an arm restraint, owing to the position in front of Phoenix, but of course the Biobarrier of course is aligned the same way, so it figures.Lets hope we get to see some updates soon regarding the observations made by Phoenix of its surroundings on Mars, rather than just oven this, TEGA that, spring other, etc.Sol 13 weather report is up.Weather up to & including Sol 13. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/10/8ef2079f-f419-4093-aa0c-9adb98ea10b1.Medium.gif" alt="" />Sol 13 weather report. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/13/5a502276-923a-4dba-bdf4-61c9c0cfee9f.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol 13 Max: -32 C / -25.6 F.Sol 13 Min: -80 C / -112 F.Pressure 8.4 millibars.Wind: 14 KPH Southeasterlies.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

SpaceKiwi · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>So it was from the bio-barrier as some had speculated. Posted by abq_farside</DIV> Nice one, we now know it to be an off-nominal but inconsequential outcome.  Mystery solved, case closed.I've just had a look at the animated photos of the first oven with soil sample.  It occurs to me that it's going to be nigh on impossible to get discrete samples from various dig locations and depths to each of the ovens.  I assume this was anticipated, or have they dumped more soil than they ideally would have liked in response to the problem of getting the oven loaded?EDIT: To correct to off-nominal on the spring. SK  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/4/e4a3cd3d-6aad-44d3-a4ed-3a63a32e985a.Medium.gif" alt="" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 9, 2008

June 9 Scribblenotes;Really annoying, images didn't come up (except for the first one of the slumping material on top of TEGA) until midway through the conference.Also really annoying, SDC being hosed today. Grrrrrrr Doug Ming-JSC, William Boynton? Co-Investigator, TEGA OK, TEGA shake done. Soil did move, but only 1 or 2 very small particles made it through the screen. They were detected going into the oven, but less than 1 mg, rather than the 20-30 mg needed for analyis. One thought is that there's so much material there (more than they expected) that the particles are weighed down by the overlying soil, so particles at the screen can't bounce enough to get small ones to the screen. More vibrations will be attempted to see if things improve. Meantime, they will treat the next sample (for the microscope) differently, trying to shake out larger clumps by running rasp to vibrate the scoop. Hopefully will be delivered by Sol 16 (it's early Sol 15 now). Other options are crushing, then raking the soil before scooping. Images of soil slump, and whirlygig that does the vibrating. Image of soil in scoop, very clumpy!! Related Questions... Leo, Irish TV If cause of clumpiness is static, can you "de-static" it by grounding it? Well, it's very cohesive, could be moisture, salt cementation, interlocking particles, or static. WGBH: Have you used engineering model? A: Sure, biggest problem is creating an analog for the soil. Sally, The Planetary Report: Cloddiness a surprise? No, not too much. We thought vibrator would work, but here too much soil weighing it down. Jeremy, Chic Trib: When do we get worried? A: Not for a while. Working way through problem. A week or two at least. Hindsight 20/20, would you design differently? A: Well, this is an inexpensive mission, and you have to do what you can. The ovens were intentionally small so you could get 8 on the craft. Q: If you give up on this oven, can you go back? A: Sure, we can move onto the next oven for now and come back to this one later. Q: Next sample site? A: Probably in National Park. Q: Maybe moisture from Snow Queen melted during descent? A: Sure, possible Still  can't say if it's ice or salt. As a previous panel member said, it's either ice or it's not

Q:Worst case, go directly to ice for next sample. A: No ,better to go slow and learn more as we go along. Q: Has TEGA sample atmosphere, can it detect Methane? A: Yes a little, methane detection would be very unlikely at expected levels. THE SPRING!!!! Source has been found, it was from the bioshield, apparantly a cable broke during retraction, allowing the spring to pop free. Image of spring and broken cable? For 7 Days, teleconference availble by phone 1-866-475-1456 (Internatioanl 203-369-1504) Will also be posted onlineMW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 9, 2008

Thanks Wayne my very good friend for the scribble notes.Interesting to see that atmospheric methane may be detectable with TEGA. It will be in such miniscule quantities IMO it would be at TEGA's limit.I suppose the only real sure way of detecting the source of methane is to see if it is actually coming form the soil. Of course it could also be from a volcanic source or a mixture of both. Very difficult!!!!!!I am glad that bloody spring issue is done with now. I hope that no more time is wasted on that issue. It looks like some soil has fallen into the TEGA. It is quite apparent that some has slipped further beneath the oven doors.{EDITED Just saw your notes Wayne that about 10% of what's required has fallen into the oven}.It should be getting interesting soon, as higher resolution images of the surroundings are coming back now, clearly visible in the raw images from the SSI. Hopefully there will be something to report soon from those. Phoenix has landed in an interesting location for sure.I still reckon that the soils clumpiness is due in part to the weight of a few metres of Winter CO2 ice pressing down, though of course electostatic binding & also particles interlocking will play a part also. I see that the nature of Snow Queen has not been determined yet. Apparently one pair of Phoenix descent thrusters do line up with the holes, thus heightening the possiblilty of ice, though Magnesium Kierserite still cannot be ruled out. Cheers Wayne, again my good friend.Edited as I have read Wayne's excellent notes properly & edited again, to expand on my response to Wayne.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

Simultaneity · Jun 9, 2008

It occurs to me that it's going to be nigh on impossible to get discrete samples from various dig locations and depths to each of the ovens. I don't think so.  The opening of this particular oven (I forget the number), was anomalous in that door did not open fully.  The others are expected to spring open on both sides fully; with enough force to move any soil that may be on top.Edit:  Font size

Simultaneity · Jun 9, 2008

If she is ice, could we expect changes via sublimation to be visually evident over the course of the mission?

efron_24 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Don't forget, Phoenix teleconference at the top of the hour. I'll try and post a link if I can get back into SDC. Teh Interwebz seems very sluggish today. Last I checked, there's a live TV one same time tomorrow on NASA TVMW Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Sorry .. because the Orange Team plays (the Orange Family is our Royal family) plays vs Italy i missed the telecomI hope you will tell me what happened.. My goodness... the Royal Orange is 2-0 vs the Republic of Italy <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

tanstaafl76 · Jun 9, 2008

The more I look at the soil pictures the more the stuff looks heavy and sticky.  Hopefully that means it's a perma-frost type dirt that contains H20 crystals. Would CO2 also be frozen at these temperatures?   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Sorry .. because the Orange Team plays (the Orange Family is our Royal family) plays vs Italy i missed the telecomI hope you will tell me what happened.. My goodness... the Royal Orange is 2-0 vs the Republic of Italy Posted by efron_24</DIV>Hi efron_24. Wayne has posted some detailed scribble notes a few posts above. I too missed the teleconference but Wayne has told me enough, for me to know what has happened.Soil on oven @ 11:43  local time in Scandia Colles. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/11/293d3b54-22e1-4cc7-bb27-4aec4e6aa744.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Soil on oven @ 13:04 local time in Scandia Colles. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/15/9074a6c4-7318-4ccc-bf73-6312a2ca6c48.Medium.jpg" alt="" />And now, guess what, pictures by Phoenix of what, any guesses???....Wait!!!!.....Wait for it!.....Be patient now!!!! .. Not yet another view of an oven door covered in soil,. ..Not yet another view of a spring in the dirt,... Or yet some other self portrait of some component that we already know about brought from Earth,. ..Wait,...Wait for it,...You'll never guess,...We're nearly there now,...... But images of Mars!!!!!!!!!!New high resolution view of horizon @ Azimuth 4 degrees NNE. Sol 14. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/2/a3cba4dc-0009-4a0a-a236-400580f8173d.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> New high resolution view of horizon @ Azimuth 7.7 degrees. NNE Sol 14. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/7/009738f2-708e-42b4-a7ad-fb7bb772a427.Medium.jpg" alt="" />New high resolution view of horizon @ Azimuth 342 degrees, NNW Sol 14. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/14/2cd09b2e-affe-4302-8e66-f449ab97c2ec.Medium.jpg" alt="" />High resolution view of Alt -17 degrees & Azimuth 331 degrees NNW Sol 14. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/2/12/d23249a1-6987-40ae-bc1f-02f278cb3f6d.Medium.jpg" alt="" />High resolution view of Alt -17 degrees & Azimuth 342 degrees NNW Sol 14. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/13/ed80b981-6677-44a1-ad3b-d526335c40f1.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

tanstaafl76 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>And now, guess what, pictures by Phoenix of what, any guesses???....Wait!!!!.....Wait for it!.....Be patient now!!!! .. Not yet another view of an oven door covered in soil,. ..Not yet another view of a spring in the dirt,... Or yet some other self portrait of some component that we already know about brought from Earth,. ..Wait,...Wait for it,...You'll never guess,...We're nearly there now,...... But images of Mars!!!!!!!!!!</DIV> Hopefully the Messages from Earth DVD includes the definition of sarcasm <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cool.gif" border="0" alt="Cool" title="Cool" />Interesting horizon shots, the ground looks lumpy as much as it is rocky, almost like miniature moguls.  Result of being thawed and re-frozen over and over? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> The more I look at the soil pictures the more the stuff looks heavy and sticky.  Hopefully that means it's a perma-frost type dirt that contains H20 crystals. Would CO2 also be frozen at these temperatures?   Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV>Nope.  There might be a dry ice frost overnight but as its sublimation temperature is  -78.5 °C it would rapidly disappear.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Interesting horizon shots, the ground looks lumpy as much as it is rocky, almost like miniature moguls.  Result of being thawed and re-frozen over and over? Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV>Maybe not freeze-thaw (unless there is a LOT of salt) but certainly waming and cooling.  NASA published a nice Earth-Mars comparison a week or so back http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=18041Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Maybe not freeze-thaw (unless there is a LOT of salt) but certainly waming and cooling.  NASA published a nice Earth-Mars comparison a week or so back http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=18041Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV> The shapes are similar, but Mars appears a bit drier!!<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-innocent.gif" border="0" alt="Innocent" title="Innocent" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

thor06 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The shapes are similar, but Mars appears a bit drier!! Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>    LOL MW, yah just a tad.  Anyone for a dust bath? BTW Great link Jon, I spent 40 mins looking around.  Bookmarked!<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

3488 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hopefully the Messages from Earth DVD includes the definition of sarcasm Interesting horizon shots, the ground looks lumpy as much as it is rocky, almost like miniature moguls.  Result of being thawed and re-frozen over and over? Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV>Hi tanstaafl76,Are you on the Messages from Earth DVD?Mine is: No 1005747. <a href="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Forums/#" title="Click to view a larger photo" onclick="return gSiteLife.LoadForumPage('ForumImage', 'plckPhotoId', '5bec8035-d8dd-4069-a5fd-a6953a27cd53', 'plckRedirectUrl', gSiteLife.EscapeValue(window.location.href));"><img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/5/5bec8035-d8dd-4069-a5fd-a6953a27cd53.Medium.gif" alt="" /></a>It will be great to start seeing some serious discussions about the science from Phoenix rather than endless discussions of soil spilled on oven or springs in the dirt, etc. These are engineering issues, that are solvable. NASA has dealt with far worse, like the Jupiter Galileo Orbiter HGA failure or even worse still, Apollo 13, that nearly killed three astronauts.The time being devoted to a little bit of lumpy soil not going through a sieve seems very disproportionate, considering how little time this mission is expected to last & the savage cold of the Martian Northern Autumn, ends the mission. Unlike the MERs which are in the tropics, or the Viking landers which were RTG powered, Phoenix has a very short mission life expectancy, being reliant on solar power, at a high latitude. At over 68 degrees north, every sol must be used to gather priceless science data from this fascinating site in Scandia Colles, within the Vastitas Borealis. The Martian Northern Summer Solstice is on Tuesday 24th June 2008 (just three days after Earth's on this occassion), then the midsol Sun will start to get lower each martian sol @ noon thereafter. In early August, the Sun will start setting, very briefly at first, then the nights will lengthen quickly. Chances are the solar arrays will also be getting dusty by then, unless Phoenix is lucky like the MERs & have dust gust cleaning events.The Northern Martian Autumn Equinox is on Sunday 11th January 2009 & I doubt very much Phoenix will survive that long, as temperatures will be plummeting & the intensity & duration of sunlight will be greatly reduced. I really, really hope that I am proven wrong on this & we get to see at least the first CO2 condensates start covering the ground & we get weather reports at this point (should be beating Viking 2's -117 C / -176.8 F, set in May 1978 by then).True we still have the MERs & they will most likely, make a huge comeback before Christmas as the sunlight will be much stronger by then for both & the MSL & ExoMars will be making their way in the not too distant future, but these are limited to sites relatively close to the equator, certainly within the tropics. We do not know, when or if, we will get another high latitude landing on Mars. That's why we must get on with the Phoenix mission, whilst power margins are good & instrumentation is still in excellent working order.The bottom line is, I am afraid that time is being wasted. There is a saying, "Make Hay whilst the Sun shines" . We are at the point of the mission when Phoenix should be producing scientific hay.Mars is not going to stop in its heliocentric orbit for a few sols to wait for an oven door to open, or for endless self portraits of familiar components to be taken, or for soil to sieve into an oven, the Martian Summer will come & go & will turn into Autumn regardless. Yes I understand general engineering images have to be taken, but looking at the raw images, a huge number continue to be self portraits, despite being 15 Sols in.I'm afraid that the clock is ticking & very little progress is being made, scientifically speaking.Andrew Brown.http://www.photodump.com/Anonymous/Messages from Earth cert.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Nope.  There might be a dry ice frost overnight but as its sublimation temperature is  -78.5 °C it would rapidly disappear.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Hi Jon, I wonder if if over a few sols some observations around the midnight sun time coulld be made, to see if CO2 condensates do appear briefly each sol? Obviously they would need to be south facing away from the sun, though some sun facing observations may reveal interesting parhelia, caused by CO2 ice crystals rather than the familiar H2O ones? Also Jon, yes the similarity between Scandia Colles & Spitzbergen (Svalbard) on Earth is striking, the martian polygons are certainly more square. Do you think that the much lower Martian temperatures of below -112 C / -170 F, forcing ice crystals to form into cubes are causing the martian polygons to appear more square, than the Earth ones, which appear more circular / hexagonal?Andrew Brown.    <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The shapes are similar, but Mars appears a bit drier!! Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Most certainly is Wayne, and very much colder on average too. Those images I posted earlier after my sarcastic rant (being frustrated about the same engineering stuff being gone over & over again as sols are ticking away), really show how the warming, cooling cycle is causing the landscape to buckle & heave.This landscape is unlike anything seen on Mars to date at ground level.On the 7.7 Azimuth image, about a quarter of the way from the left on the horizon, looks like a low rise. A pingo? The 4 deg azimuth image, the same thing is still visible, but further to the left, but is not so sharp (smaller image).I am beginning to see some real detail on some of these now. Also what appears to be a small impact crater in the WNW, though Wayne is correct & caution must be used till the final product is released, then we will know for sure.This is an interesting area.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I'm afraid that the clock is ticking & very little progress is being made, scientifically speaking.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> So while the issues with feeding TEGA are being worked, what (if you were PI) should be done ?  Since I know squat about soil testing I can, with a fearlessness and recklessness born of ignorannce, wonder if probing (thermal, electrical) of the "ice" wouldn't be a worthwhile activity.  Would a series of probings, over the course of a SOL or 2, of the some same area (not necessarily the "ice") reveal anything ? WWABD ?  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" />  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

3488 · Jun 9, 2008

So while the issues with feeding TEGA are being worked, what (if you were PI) should be done ?  Since I know squat about soil testing I can, with a fearlessness and recklessness born of ignorannce, wonder if probing (thermal, electrical) of the "ice" wouldn't be a worthwhile activity.  Would a series of probings, over the course of a SOL or 2, of the some same area (not necessarily the "ice") reveal anything ? WWABD ?    Posted by mee_n_mac[/QUOTE]Hi mee_n_mac.Good question, which I am not going to duck out of.If I were PI, what I would do, is replicate what is being observed with the clumpy soil with the testbed lander on Earth. Using varying sized samples such as dry talcum powder, damp talcum powder, talcum powder at low temperatures, the same with salt, sand & also mixtures. Try & replicate what is being observed by Phoenix on Mars.Then each replica sample try out as many replica TEGA sieve vibrations @ different frequencies & durations, etc & which will be the most effective at solving this problem.The real Phoenix on Mars in the meantime, whilst the getting the samples into the oven problem is being worked, isGet the high res 360 degree colour panorama down. Thus the geologists can start to examine in detail the landing site & surrounding area of Phoenix & the serious work of site comparisons & characterisation with the other five successful landing sites on Mars can begin & start piecing together clues as to what has or is still shaping the current landscape that Phoenix has landed on. What are the type of rocks surrounding the lander? What are the nature of the hills in the South to southwest, etc? How does this relate to the samples going into the TEGA?Continue weather monitoring. Use various IR & UV filters on the SSI to ascertain a more accurate chemical analysis of the landing site then concentrate on the digging area, as that may help solve the clumping problem when the digging resumes. Carry out midnight sun observations, to monitor sky glows, revealing further clues as to the extent of dust, high altitude clouds, parhelia, etc.There is much that can be gotten on with, whilst Phoenix is still healthy, the solar arrays are still clean & there is an abundance of sunlight, whilst the problem of getting samples into the oven are being worked on & solved.I wonder if just using the scoop to 'rough up' some soil would break it down enough to prevent clogging up???I just love this mission far too much to allow sols be wasted without me voicing IMO legitimate concerns.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

scottb50 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Nope.  There might be a dry ice frost overnight but as its sublimation temperature is  -78.5 °C it would rapidly disappear.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV> http://www.unisci.com/stories/20012/0402013.htmYou have to take into account the lower air pressure on Mars to begin with. While the elevation at the North polar region is lower then the Southern the same thing could be happening.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bearack · Jun 10, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi efron_24. Wayne has posted some detailed scribble notes a few posts above. I too missed the teleconference but Wayne has told me enough, for me to know what has happened.Soil on oven @ 11:43  local time in Scandia Colles.Soil on oven @ 13:04 local time in Scandia Colles.And now, guess what, pictures by Phoenix of what, any guesses???....Wait!!!!.....Wait for it!.....Be patient now!!!! .. Not yet another view of an oven door covered in soil,. ..Not yet another view of a spring in the dirt,... Or yet some other self portrait of some component that we already know about brought from Earth,. ..Wait,...Wait for it,...You'll never guess,...We're nearly there now,...... But images of Mars!!!!!!!!!!New high resolution view of horizon @ Azimuth 4 degrees NNE. Sol 14.New high resolution view of horizon @ Azimuth 7.7 degrees. NNE Sol 14.New high resolution view of horizon @ Azimuth 342 degrees, NNW Sol 14.High resolution view of Alt -17 degrees & Azimuth 331 degrees NNW Sol 14.High resolution view of Alt -17 degrees & Azimuth 342 degrees NNW Sol 14.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> Andrew,This image intrigues me the most.  What do you make of the trench lines?<img id="fullSizedImage" style="width:665px" src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/Bearack/MarsTrench.jpg?t=1213102322" alt="MarsTrench.jpg picture by Bearack" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

3488 · Jun 10, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Andrew,This image intrigues me the most.  What do you make of the trench lines? Posted by bearack</DIV>  Hi Bearack, just a quick chime in, I will give you a more thorough answer later.For now, looking at your diagram on the 4 degree Azm image I posted, my guess & that is all it is, that if the surface 'mounds' are on top of ice, that it could be cracked. The temperature swings causing the ice to expand & contract, causes these 'trench lines' on the dusty surface, as the 'top soil' is arranged to follow the suspected ice fractures.Also as evidenced by the problems of getting samples into the oven in TEGA, the surface soil has been seen to have a very coherent structure. That also would fit in with my theory of exopanding & contracting cracked subsurface ice. Also the ice changes crystaline structure here as it gets cold enough (something that does not occur on Earth as it is not cold enough here), with hexagonal ice crystals forming into cubes. This too may cause differening sorting patterns, etc on the 'top soil' & I think evidenced by the squarish polygons, seen around Phoenix.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

bearack · Jun 10, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Hi Bearack, just a quick chime in, I will give you a more thorough answer later.For now, looking at your diagram on the 4 degree Azm image I posted, my guess & that is all it is, that if the surface 'mounds' are on top of ice, that it could be cracked. The temperature swings causing the ice to expand & contract, causes these 'trench lines' on the dusty surface, as the 'top soil' is arranged to follow the suspected ice fractures.Also as evidenced by the problems of getting samples into the oven in TEGA, the surface soil has been seen to have a very coherent structure. That also would fit in with my theory of exopanding & contracting cracked subsurface ice. Also the ice changes crystaline structure here as it gets cold enough (something that does not occur on Earth as it is not cold enough here), with hexagonal ice crystals forming into cubes. This too may cause differening sorting patterns, etc on the 'top soil' & I think evidenced by the squarish polygons, seen around Phoenix.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> Excellent explanation as always, Andrew.My thought was that those trench lines look very familiar to pooling of liquid water, but it was only speculative at best. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 10, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>So while the issues with feeding TEGA are being worked, what (if you were PI) should be done ?  Since I know squat about soil testing I can, with a fearlessness and recklessness born of ignorannce, wonder if probing (thermal, electrical) of the "ice" wouldn't be a worthwhile activity.  Would a series of probings, over the course of a SOL or 2, of the some same area (not necessarily the "ice") reveal anything ? WWABD ?    Posted by mee_n_mac</DIV> One project being worked on is a sample for the microspcopic imager. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

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