Phoenix surface mission

efron_24 · Jun 8, 2008

been away for about 5 days and sooo much has happened.amazing ! thanks for all the updates <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

thor06 · Jun 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>If I was betting, they'll find away around the problem Spacecraft science is all about overcoming difficulties, IMHO Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Good point MW.  My money is with you. About the soil;  This popped in my head,  static charge.  Could those little grains rubbing together produce static cling? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

jumpjack2 · Jun 8, 2008

There are some news about the spring/shell:  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/13/0303962e-832e-40f6-8d5f-2a66cefb7709.Medium.jpg" alt="" />LINK <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" />Ok, back to science....Didn't they plan to attempt oven opening using the robotic arm itself?!?

centsworth_II · Jun 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Didn't they plan to attempt oven opening using the robotic arm itself?!?  Posted by jumpjack2</DIV> All plans for manipulation of samples by the scoop are for future samples,  before delivery to TEGA, either on the Mars surface or, possibly, on a clear area of the Phoenix deck.  As I understand it, they can use the other TEGA ovens and reserve drastic attempts (if nothing else works) to force  sample into the first oven  for late in the mission.  I'm confident though.  They have only used the nominal (5 min.) shaker routine for sample delivery.  They can crank up the shaker vibration rate and increase the number and perhaps the length of time it is used (I believe). There has not even been a second attempt made yet to shake the sample in. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There are some news about the spring/shell: LINK Ok, back to science....Didn't they plan to attempt oven opening using the robotic arm itself?!?  Posted by jumpjack2</DIV> And what news is that? The link was to a bunch of pictures (no news) that hosed my computer up for a few minutes!Bad intro to SDC. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>All plans for manipulation of samples by the scoop are for future samples,  before delivery to TEGA, either on the Mars surface or, possibly, on a clear area of the Phoenix deck.  As I understand it, they can use the other TEGA ovens and reserve drastic attempts (if nothing else works) to force  sample into the first oven  for late in the mission.  I'm confident though.  They have only used the nominal (5 min.) shaker routine for sample delivery.  They can crank up the shaker vibration rate and increase the number and perhaps the length of time it is used (I believe). There has not even been a second attempt made yet to shake the sample in. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>Cheers centsworth_II. Yes that is the next course of action. Increased shaking WILL separate the sample particulates. I am sure that this is only a temporary blip, rather than a serious long term problem. I just think, owing to the location of Phoenix that firstly the almost zero humidity causing electrostatic binding (probably stronger here than at the other 5 successful landing sites) & also I think the weight of the CO2 ice in Winter compressing it further had been overlooked. We know for sure it gets cold enough, look at the squareish polygons, indicating that ice here gets cold enough to form into cubes, IIRC at temperatures of -112 C / -170 F & below. Also MGS, Mars Express, Odyssey & MRO have seen this area from orbit covered in CO2 ice.This really is an alien landscape, whilst looking similar to terrestrial tundra, looking at it again more closely, it is very different.Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>And what news is that? The link was to a bunch of pictures (no news) that hosed my computer up for a few minutes!Bad intro to SDC. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Hi Wayne,I too have not heard any news of that nature. The strength of that arm is truly incredible, more than strong enough to drag Phoenix along on the Martian tundra & capable of tipping Phoenix right over. So I would think that before using that arm to poke at Phoenix herself, other options would have been exhausted & also other key mission objectives would have been met, such as weather montoring 360 degree high res colour panorama & multispectral observations of objects of interest, before the arm is used to start poking at components of Phoenix. One mistake & that powerful arm could end the life of Phoenix. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jun 8, 2008

A few images from Sol 13 that I have been working on.Horizon view. Azimuth 72 degrees. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/1/0c4ba40a-1b39-4b42-b1d0-58920ad9cddb.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Mid distance view at azimuth 61 degrees.<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/5/6e2c7ca6-1382-4c17-8573-6622506fc67a.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Panorama from NE to East Sol 13. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/15/ce98d0ae-8a21-41c8-8f7b-3038275a4929.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Another wider pan looking NE to East.<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/14/e4ba9bfc-2f01-443d-8e1c-cba4b6acf5ef.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

efron_24 · Jun 8, 2008

What is it with Linda and Io.. happening in the last century ? and these Krell..That makes me wonder for all my days here... because after reading that 12x one knows that she noticed that, and he saw monsters..grin.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>What is it with Linda and Io.. happening in the last century ? and these Krell..That makes me wonder for all my days here... because after reading that 12x one knows that she noticed that, and he saw monsters..grin.  Posted by efron_24</DIV> Hey we have some fun (and make some points) with our siglines. Do you know who the Krell are? Perhaps you should learn about them.See "Forbidden Planet"If you don't want to see the siglines, you can turn them off on your home page.QUITE off topic for this thread. If you wish to discuss the issue (which is a valid subject for discussion), please start a thread in the Open Forum.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hey we have some fun (and make some points) with our siglines. Do you know who the Krell are? Perhaps you should learn about them.See "Forbidden Planet"If you don't want to see the siglines, you can turn them off on your home page.QUITE off topic for this thread. If you wish to discuss the issue (which is a valid subject for discussion), please start a thread in the Open Forum.  Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>I agree Wayne.efron_24 should go & get a copy of Forbidden Planet. I am not going to say who The Krell are, that's too easy, but Forbidden Planet is also one of my favourite films. My sigline reflects a defining moment in planetary exploration, when preconceived ideas about an object where thrown out of the window for good & scientists / astronomers finally learnt that they could not predict what a previously unimaged from close range object would be like, based on Earth based telescopic observations. Besides I'm a volcano head also & Io is one of my favourite solar system bodies, hense my avatar a Galileo Spacecraft image of Io in September 1997.Link here, Io, Friday 19th September 1997.Sorry also for going off topic here, but I felt that I needed to explain myself as Wayne was more than good enough to explain himself.Back on topic. Lets hope that Sol 14 delivers some interesting data.Is it a teleconference or a proper televised Media Conference tomorrow for Phoenix update?Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Jun 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Good point MW.  My money is with you. About the soil;  This popped in my head,  static charge.  Could those little grains rubbing together produce static cling? Posted by thor06</DIV>Paricles that are small enough wil often have charge without friction.  Clay particle surfaces are also charged.  Terrestrial soils are are often clumpy for both these reasons. maany salts are also highly hydroscopic, abosrbing the smallest amounts of moisture and becoming sticky in the process.  Which is why household salt shakers get clogged.Jon  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

jumpjack2 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>And what news is that? The link was to a bunch of pictures (no news) that hosed my computer up for a few minutes!Bad intro to SDC. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> that was supposed to be a JOKE, and the link is to images of "paguros", terrestrial life forms living in SHELLS... like the "shell" found by Phonix! <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" />

3488 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Paricles that are small enough wil often have charge without friction.  Clay particle surfaces are also charged.  Terrestrial soils are are often clumpy for both these reasons. maany salts are also highly hydroscopic, abosrbing the smallest amounts of moisture and becoming sticky in the process.  Which is why household salt shakers get clogged.Jon  Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Hi Jon,I would have thought that at this location, any humidity must be almost zero. The extremely low pressure coupled with low temperatures would ensure that???I wonder if the weight of the CO2 ice in Winter also compacts the soil?Below Sol 13 image, mid distance almost due east Azm 83 degrees. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/2/64418c90-37be-4d04-92ee-db2c2716db5b.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Horizon view almost due east Azm 83 degrees. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/14/7dc18e9c-86fe-42ad-bebe-d324b70fbbf1.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Pan approx from Phoenix to horizon approx 60 degrees Azm. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/2/bb644065-dec1-44ac-8236-b8537a623c93.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Looks like there are two downloads each Sol now. By my reckoning there was not a downloads due till after 09:00 UTC??????? Loads of material has appeared since last night here in Britain.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

earth_bound_misfit · Jun 9, 2008

It really makes me wonder at times that the brains behind these things can make such a momentous cok up.Come on, this ain't rocket science. Hang on, yes it is <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" />  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ----------------------------------------------------------------- Wanna see this site looking like the old SDC uplink?Go here to see how: SDC Eye saver </div>

lucaspf · Jun 9, 2008

1 mm grain size only? Have the MERs given the science team a pretty good idea of equatorial regolith grain sizes? Were they going on that when they designed Phoenix? Doesn't the robotic arm have a drill/agitator attached to it? I musst admit my heart sank a little when I heard the news. I agree with you guys though, where there is a will, there is a way dammit! Phoenix will rise to the occation. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 9, 2008

We should know the results of the second attempt soon. "On Sunday, Sol 14 of NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander mission, mechanical shakers inside the Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer will attempt to loosen clumped soils on the device's screens to allow material to fall into the oven for analysis later in the week. The commands for this shaking action were to be sent to the spacecraft late morning Sunday, Pacific Daylight Time, and results will be reported Monday, June 9...." http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080608.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 9, 2008

1 mm grain size only? Have the MERs given the science team a pretty good idea of equatorial regolith grain sizes? Were they going on that when they designed Phoenix? Doesn't the robotic arm have a drill/agitator attached to it? I musst admit my heart sank a little when I heard the news. I agree with you guys though, where there is a will, there is a way dammit! Phoenix will rise to the occation. Posted by lucaspf[/QUOTE]Hi Lucas,Thanks for your appreciated post. Yes Phoenix WILL rise above this little set back.People are bad mouthing the Phoenix team over this. IMO that is most unfair. Phoenix has successfully landed at a much higher latitude than any other craft to date (Viking 2 being the previous record holder). The soil here WILL act differently to the soil further south, lets say at the Viking 1 or Mars Pathfinder sites, let alone MER B Opportunity which is more or less equatorial.Phoenix has landed in a truly alien environment, where the polygons are squarish due to the ice forming into cubes, at a temperature far lower than anywhere recorded on Earth. Already on Sol 14, we have unique views of the surface of Mars at a very different site to anywhere we've been before, yet people still moan. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the Vastitas Borealis & Scandia Colles is a poorly understood region, hense Phoenix being sent there. This mission is going extremely well, yet people still moan.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 9, 2008

Don't know how fast the news will get passed to us, but they may even know by morning if it worked."Goal Sunday was to shake the screen to help soil particles fall into the TEGA oven. Downlinking data o'nite for team to see the result"   http://twitter.com/MarsPhoenix <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Don't know how fast the news will get passed to us, but they may even know by morning if it worked."Goal Sunday was to shake the screen to help soil particles fall into the TEGA oven. Downlinking data o'nite for team to see the result"   http://twitter.com/MarsPhoenix Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>Hi centsworth_II. I would imagine any news will come with the next download, including Sol 14 images, weather report, etc. I do not think we will have to wait long.Sol 12 weather. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/0/e52cea86-d497-4ae9-a091-579684fd80ff.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol Max: -30 C / -22 F.Sol Min: -80 / -112 F.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

bearack · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi centsworth_II. I would imagine any news will come with the next download, including Sol 14 images, weather report, etc. I do not think we will have to wait long.Sol 12 weather.Sol Max: -30 C / -22 F.Sol Min: -80 / -112 F.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> You had probably mentioned this before, but at what level are they taking the temp readings?  Since it can be +50 F an inch above the surface and -180 F 6 ft above the surface, I was just curious to how the are measuring.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

3488 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You had probably mentioned this before, but at what level are they taking the temp readings?  Since it can be +50 F an inch above the surface and -180 F 6 ft above the surface, I was just curious to how the are measuring.  Posted by bearack</DIV>Hi bearack. AFAIK it is from 2 metres above the ground. There are three sensors but IIRC, the readings are from the top one & that is considered the most reliable as is furthest from the lander.There is a small chance that the temperatures quoted my still be slightly higher than they really are.I remember that from Mars Pathfinder, the ground temp could be 0 C, but 1.5 metres up it was -12 C, a drop of 12 C within the height of a person. Quite some drop, shows how crap the martian atmosphere is at distributing heat. Not surprising really as at the Datum Line is the same density as Earth's atmosphere is @ at altitude of 30 KM / 19 miles above sea level. If I find out more, I'll let you know.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

efron_24 · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi bearack. AFAIK it is from 2 metres above the ground. There are three sensors but IIRC, the readings are from the top one & that is considered the most reliable as is furthest from the lander.There is a small chance that the temperatures quoted my still be slightly higher than they really are.I remember that from Mars Pathfinder, the ground temp could be 0 C, but 1.5 metres up it was -12 C, a drop of 12 C within the height of a person. Quite some drop, shows how crap the martian atmosphere is at distributing heat. Not surprising really as at the Datum Line is the same density as Earth's atmosphere is @ at altitude of 30 KM / 19 miles above sea level.If I find out more, I'll let you know.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV>At the 2 june 2008 teleconference they said that there is a 20 celcius difference between ground level and the height of an average man's head level.. So 20 celcius for about 1m75 / 1m80When they measure -30 at 2m above the ground it is about -5 to -10 at ground level. Very close to the melting point of water here on Earth. But I do not know what that would be on Mars.. esp. if much salt is invovled. There is a new TeleConference tonight     <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 9, 2008

Don't forget, Phoenix teleconference at the top of the hour. I'll try and post a link if I can get back into SDC. Teh Interwebz seems very sluggish today. Last I checked, there's a live TV one same time tomorrow on NASA TVMW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Don't forget, Phoenix teleconference at the top of the hour. I'll try and post a link if I can get back into SDC. Teh Interwebz seems very sluggish today. Last I checked, there's a live TV one same time tomorrow on NASA TVMW Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Running late.Next TV 3PM WedLink:http://www.nasa.gov/news/media/newsaudio/index.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

tanstaafl76 · Jun 9, 2008

New pictures up: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/index.html Clumpy soil!  And spring answers!   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

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