Photons and Gravity

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ihwip

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I am interested to know how photons play in the overall gravitational effects in space. Does all the light flying around in the universe create gravitational pull?
 
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SpeedFreek

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Simply put, gravity is related to mass, and light has no mass.
 
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supn

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Subatomic particles do have mass. The electron for instance has mass 9x10^-31. This is because of the charge within the electromagnetic force. The atom is then an effect of the composite of all charges, and is called 'matter'.

As we know, gravity is detected as matter attracts other matter. The more matter, the more gravity. Subatomic energy creating matter, and matter creating gravity, you can say that subatomic energy makes up gravity.

This can reunify electromagnetic energy with gravity in a common physical model. Many in modern physicis indeed consider gravity to be a macroscopic wave vector from an underlying electromagnetic force-field.
B. Haisch, Mass Medium, New Scientist, 3 February 2001.
 
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SpeedFreek

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supn":3pq4bzd9 said:
Subatomic particles do have mass. The electron for instance has mass 9x10^-31. This is because of the charge within the electromagnetic force. The atom is then an effect of the composite of all charges, and is called 'matter'.

As we know, gravity is detected as matter attracts other matter. The more matter, the more gravity. Subatomic energy creating matter, and matter creating gravity, you can say that subatomic energy makes up gravity.
But how does any of this relate to photons, which have no mass?
 
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ihwip

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Doesn't energy itself produce gravitational effects? E=mc^2 and all that fun stuff. Doesn't Dark Energy make up a huge chunk of the universe and effect the way galaxies rotate etc or is that just Dark Matter?
 
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vogon13

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The gravitational field of the sun is equivalent to a large amount of energy, and energy is related to mass via Einstein's famous equation, and it turns out, Einstein realized this about the suns gravitational field having a subsidiary gravitational field of its own, and realized it neatly explained Mercury's otherwise anomalous advance of the perihelion of its orbit of 4 arc seconds/century.
 
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supn

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SpeedFreek":3ghtos2i said:
But how does any of this relate to photons, which have no mass?
Photons are like the messengers for the universe to exist -- submicroscopically (atom), microscopically (molecules) and macroscopically (gravity).

How does this work?

To start with, photons are not particles. They are waves (see double slit experiment). We notice those waves as we detect their crests or troughs.

I wrote: "The atom is an effect of the composite of all charges". The question remains: what is 'charge'?

Lightwaves well up from the middle (nucleus), move upward onto the rims and then are spinning on the rims of an atom (electron). 'Charge' is the spinning concentration of lightwaves. The whole is called an atom. Image

Matter is the name we give to combinations of atoms. Matter has mass. Mass depends on the magnitude of the gravitational force acting on matter. Gravitational force is the macroscopic form of the underlying energetic process. Energy that is made up of... photons.

That is the relationship between photons and gravity.
 
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derekmcd

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ihwip":1pk84xyz said:
I am interested to know how photons play in the overall gravitational effects in space. Does all the light flying around in the universe create gravitational pull?
In short, yes it does. Electromagnetic radiation contributes to the stress-energy tensor. The stress-energy tensor is what gives the universe it's curvature (or lack thereof) via the gravitational field.
 
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yevaud

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True. The caveat being that it takes a great deal of energy to have the same affect as a concentration of mass. Simple E=MC^2 sees to that (I seem to recollect DrRocket also made this point in another thread).
 
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derekmcd

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supn":2bmaua7a said:
Photons are like the messengers for the universe to exist -- submicroscopically (atom), microscopically (molecules) and macroscopically (gravity).
Not sure what this means, but photons are gauge bosons which are carrier particles of the electromagnetic force. I could understand one making the statement that photons exist because the universe exists, but not the other way around.

How does this work?

To start with, photons are not particles. They are waves (see double slit experiment). We notice those waves as we detect their crests or troughs.
Photons can be seen as both particles or waves depending on how you choose to experiment with and observe them. We don't actually detect their crests and troughs. We infer they exist based interference patterns. This can only be done with many photons which can be described as an electromagnetic wave.

We also know they are particles because they can quantized and be seen to transfer momentum to other individual particles.

I wrote: "The atom is an effect of the composite of all charges". The question remains: what is 'charge'?

Lightwaves well up from the middle (nucleus), move upward onto the rims and then are spinning on the rims of an atom (electron). 'Charge' is the spinning concentration of lightwaves. The whole is called an atom. Image

Matter is the name we give to combinations of atoms. Matter has mass. Mass depends on the magnitude of the gravitational force acting on matter. Gravitational force is the macroscopic form of the underlying energetic process. Energy that is made up of... photons.

That is the relationship between photons and gravity.
I'm not sure what any of this means, but it appears you are getting your information from fringe or new age type sources.
 
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derekmcd

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yevaud":3n0xlph6 said:
True. The caveat being that it takes a great deal of energy to have the same affect as a concentration of mass. Simple E=MC^2 sees to that (I seem to recollect DrRocket also made this point in another thread).
Indeed. It would be quite a feat of physics and technology to gather enough photons, pack them into a small enough space and measure the gravitational field.
 
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ArcCentral

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supn":372u5lsv said:
SpeedFreek":372u5lsv said:
But how does any of this relate to photons, which have no mass?
Photons are like the messengers for the universe to exist -- submicroscopically (atom), microscopically (molecules) and macroscopically (gravity).

How does this work?

To start with, photons are not particles. They are waves (see double slit experiment). We notice those waves as we detect their crests or troughs.

I wrote: "The atom is an effect of the composite of all charges". The question remains: what is 'charge'?

Lightwaves well up from the middle (nucleus), move upward onto the rims and then are spinning on the rims of an atom (electron). 'Charge' is the spinning concentration of lightwaves. The whole is called an atom. Image

Matter is the name we give to combinations of atoms. Matter has mass. Mass depends on the magnitude of the gravitational force acting on matter. Gravitational force is the macroscopic form of the underlying energetic process. Energy that is made up of... photons.

That is the relationship between photons and gravity.
I've been thinking along these lines over the last ten years, essentially the same direction, different path. Mass is then the localization of the foci of photons, while gravity can be considered the outward propagation of the remaining part of said photons. Gravity, electromagnetic, strong, and weak forces, are a matter of location, location, location within a localized photon. In essence, gravity and the photon are the same thing.
 
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ihwip

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OK, so does a photon simply not exist in the gravitational spectrum (if you will) and simply transmit energy? If so where does that tiny bit of gravity go that disappeared when the photon left its origin? Does it suddenly jump when the photon is absorbed?
 
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Saiph

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The photon does exist in the 'gravitational spectrum' as you put it. One of the interesting facts about General relativity is that objects don't need mass to have, or be affected by, gravity.

Photons have energy, and momentum, and thus have mass in that sense. But they don't have 'rest mass' or a physical tangible...um..weight to them. Rest mass is the most compact and efficient way of affecting gravity, but not the only way.

So the small fluctuation in gravity that the energy of a photon creates, travels with it to it's destination.


Unless I too am completely wrong on this account....
 
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aphh

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Saiph":3jt8rik2 said:
The photon does exist in the 'gravitational spectrum' as you put it. One of the interesting facts about General relativity is that objects don't need mass to have, or be affected by, gravity.

Photons have energy, and momentum, and thus have mass in that sense. But they don't have 'rest mass' or a physical tangible...um..weight to them. Rest mass is the most compact and efficient way of affecting gravity, but not the only way.

So the small fluctuation in gravity that the energy of a photon creates, travels with it to it's destination.


Unless I too am completely wrong on this account....
You said it quite well. One thing to note about physical particles and photons is that massless photon really does not exist unless there is something to interact with it. A particle with mass exists even if there is nothing to interact with it.

We need a sensor or a surface to interact with a photon. Otherwise the photon doesn't exist. The collision of a photon to a surface or a sensor is it's short-lived mass.
 
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