Shredding Saturn V posters ??

[radarredux]

On NASA Watch:<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>"<i>But then I got this message from a contact who worked at KSC: "However, just before we left KSC, a guy from the NASA Export Control Office (which is run by some contractor, maybe Analex?) came by our office on an "inspection" and told us we had to take down all the Saturn V drawings we had around ... now, these were just old NAA public relation drawings, plus a few commercially-purchased posters showing the Saturn V internals in very rough detail. He said they were all covered by ITAR and therefore had to be locked up! We kept telling him some were purchased at the Visitor Center Gift Shop, but he did not care. He ended up coming around with an armed security cop until we took them down and shredded them.</i>"<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Links to the original material can be found at the NASA Watch page:<br />http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2007/07/nasa_ksc_itar_r.html

 

[3488]

I do not know what ITAR are so concerned about?<br /><br />What is the fuss about?.<br /><br />I have been reading the links provided, but still do not get the problem.<br /><br />Are certain Saturn V images & diagrams bound by Official Secrets Acts??????<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[docm]

ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) limits the exporting of sensitive technologies. Even the transfer of SS2 tech to Virgin had to be approved, as did the transportation of Bigeloe's modules to Russia for launch.<br /><br />They're probably worried that detailed images of the engines could give hints to NK, Iran etc. that we'd rather not have them see.<br /><br />IMO they probably downloaded them ages ago, making this effort closing the barn door long after the horses left town. <br /><br />Besides; Russia & China would probably sell them anything they want, including the full plans of the F1, for the cost of a McDonalds franchise anyhow <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

I agree docm. <br /><br />'Rogue states' no doubt have detailed plans, downloaded yonks ago.<br /><br />Jim Bell, author of Roving Mars mentioned that when MER B Opportunity reached the heat shield<br />just out side of Endurance Crater, the authorities toyed around with the idea of not allowing <br />anyone outside (including MER JPL scientists) of the DoD to see the images, as they might reveal <br />useful information to Iran, NK, etc, regarding ICBM heat shields. <br /><br />Fortunately, sanity & common sense won out, & we got to see those amazing images.<br /><br />Below MER B Opportunity Sol 330.<br /><br />Perhaps one of the potential censored images?????<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[docm]

Why bother censoring a crumpled up mess when Google Images & Wikipedia show RV's in pristine condition? <br /><br />Wiki "Atmospheric reentry" page....<br /><br />I hate bureaucrats <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

I agree docm.<br /><br />Many bureaucrats are in overpaid non-jobs, coming up with crap like this.<br /><br />Besides AFAIK, NASA had the development of the Saturn V in full public view. Anyone who<br />was interested could find out about them.<br /><br />As for the MER & Galileo heatshields, as you have demonstrated, there is much info avaliable.<br /><br />Too many people in highly paid non-jobs with too much time on their hands.<br /><br />Below Galileo Spacecraft atmospheric probe & heatshield prior to mating.<br /><br />NASA / JPL.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Below: Another mugshot of the Galileo Spacecraft atmospheric probe & heatshield <br />prior to mating. <br /><br />NASA / JPL. <br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[billslugg]

I believe the reason they were concerned with the crumpled up heat shield was that it gave an opportunity to gather performance data. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[pmn1]

talking of ITAR<br /><br />http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2084.0.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[spacefire]

ITAR=SH+ITAR.<br /><br />everyone should scan their Saturn V posters and any drawings they have and put them online <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <br /><br /><br />here's a decent drawing of Saturn V from Google:<br />http://jleslie48.com/0206pr/saturn5allclean2.jpg<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[henryhallam]

As a British student struggling to get involved in the aerospace industry, ITAR and the associated mentality cause me some pretty big headaches.

 

[tomnackid]

ITAR'ing the Saturn V after 40 years??? Why does this send shivers down my spine? I have this unshakable notion that our administration knows something we don't and are just trying to cover their butts before the hammer falls. "Look, we tried to prevent this but all of those liberal administrations before us let this info. out to the world."<br /><br />I know, its paranoid, but such are the times we live in here in the good ol' USA at the beginning of the 21st century. Why is Bush & Co. pushing through significant increases in the power of the president durring an emergency (the president now, not the congress, gets to decide what constitutes and "emergency" and how long it goes on. I hope to god he is challenged on it!) when the odds are pretty good that the Democratic party will control the Whitehouse after the next election? October surprise?

 

[docm]

Talk about paranoia <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /><br /><br />Those changes were made in concert with Congress and are just a fine tuning of the existing rules.<br /><br />It was done because of difficulties exposed during & after 9/11 in order to improve response when Congress is out of session etc. Given that in this session they're working just 2 days a week.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi docm,<br /><br />In response too,<br /><br /><font color="yellow">It was done because of difficulties exposed during & after 9/11 in order to <br />improve response when Congress is out of session etc. Given that in this session <br />they're working just 2 days a week.... </font><br /><br />What are the American people paying their hard earned taxes on???<br /><br />That is a disgrace.<br /><br />Yes I know, crap like this, shredding Saturn V posters, hiding MER heatshield images,<br />its a disgrace.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

Now that's just plain silly.<br /><br />It's interesting to read about that, though, since Defense Industry Daily just had a feature about the GAO ripping ITAR a new one (so to speak) and various defense industry companies calling for reform. It's definitely a problem.<br /><br />US Industry Associations Pushing to Reform Export Controls<br /><br />This article doesn't address any NASA stuff, but it does speak to general issues with the way ITAR is interpreted and enforced, which are probably related. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[tomnackid]

Couldn't a would-be spy just go to the Smithsonian or the Air force Museum, or to any of a half dozen or so places that have displays of returned Mercury, Gemini and Apollo spacecraft and take pictures of the heat shield to their hearts content? Anyway, the concept of the blunt body reentry vehicle has been around for over 50 years. Its not like some Iranian engineer couldn't design a reentry vehicle from first principles! What exactly are the ITAR people thinking? Only Americans can do math?

 

[docm]

It's Federal law passed by Congress, so most of it is bureaucrats doing what bureaucrats do so as to perpetuate their existence. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>