Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

[newtonian]

Jon - I assume deposition of carbonates by a process similar to earth's geologic carbon cycle?<br /><br />This may involve "metallic" ions also in the water, such as Calcium, Sodium, Potassium, magnesium, etc. Are any of these ions are indicated in the evidence? <br /><br />Many molecules necessary for life will react with these ions. <br /><br />For example, phosphates, also necessary for life, will react.<br /><br />For just one example, with Calcium ions in water phosphate (PO4) forms hydroxylapatite (Ca5 (PO4)3)OH,, which is highly insoluble and will precipitate out of solution and be deposited.<br /><br />Likewise, fatty acids necessary for cell membrane synthesis also react similarly to form insoluble salts which precipitate out.<br /><br />In short, you cannot deposit carbonates without ions in water, and those ions react! <br /><br />See "The Mystery of Life's Origin: Reassessing Current Theories," 1984, by Charles Thaxton et al, p. 56, citing H.R. Hulett, 1969, Journal of Theoretical Biology, 24, p. 56; and E. J. Griffith, C. Ponnamperuma adn N. W. Gabel in "Origins of LIfe," 1977, 8, p. 71.

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">From the composition and texture of more than six different types of rock inspected, scientists deduced what this part of Mars was like long ago. "It was a hot, violent place with volcanic explosions and impacts," Squyres said. "Water was around, perhaps localized hot springs in some cases and trace amounts of water in other cases. <br /><br />Opportunity is examining bedrock exposures along a route between Endurance and Victoria craters.<br />The bedrock Opportunity began seeing about two-thirds of the way to Victoria appears to lie higher than the upper layers at Endurance, but its texture is more like the lowest layer, petrified sand dunes. This suggests the change from drier to wetter environmental conditions may have been cyclical.<br /> <br />Opportunity is examining bedrock exposures along a route between Endurance and Victoria craters. It recently reached what appears to be a younger layer of bedrock than examined inside Endurance. In Endurance, the lowest layers of bedrock were deposited as windblown dunes. Some of the upper layers were deposited as underwater sediments, indicating a change from drier to wetter conditions over time.<br /> <br />The bedrock Opportunity began seeing about two-thirds of the way to Victoria appears to lie higher than the upper layers at Endurance, but its texture is more like the lowest layer, petrified sand dunes. This suggests the change from drier to wetter environmental conditions may have been cyclical. <br />Iron-rich granules are abundant in all the layers at Endurance but are much smaller in the younger bedrock. These granules were formed by effects of water soaking the rocks. One possibility for why they are smaller is these layers spent less time wet. Another is the material in these layers had a different chemistry to begin with. <br /><br />http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=18442<br /><br /><br />1P186691446EL5M1.5</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"Jon - I assume deposition of carbonates by a process similar to earth's geologic carbon cycle?" -- Newtonian<br /></font><br /><br />I wonder if he meant to say sulfates. I thought the high proposed acidity of an ancient Mars ocean was due to sulfuric acid and explained the lack of carbonates seen on Mars. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

A wide range of salts have been detected spectroscopically and in Mars meteorites, especially Nakhalites. They include sulphates, carbonates, chlorides and bromides. Metallic ion species inlcude all the common ones - Fe, K, Na, Ca, Mg, and Al. Phosphates have also been detected.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">A wide range of salts have been detected spectroscopically and in Mars meteorites, especially Nakhalites.<font color="white"><br /><br />Pathfinder did a good job of analyzing the soil and rocks although some of the results may have been a little off because of the Martian dust. Notice the amount of COv3 <font color="orange">Sulfur trioxide is liquid, density 1.92 g/cm3, boiling point +43.7°C, melting point +16.8°C. 3 electron pairs for VSEPR consideration when mixed with water, it produces sulfuric acid<font color="white"><br /> - see chart below.<br /><br />Was this what was coming out of the dunes shown above?<br /><br />Compliments of:<br />http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/278/5344/1771<br /><br /><font color="orange">Magnesium is the eighth most abundant element and constitutes about 2% of the Earth's crust by weight, and it is the third most plentiful element dissolved in seawater. In the United States this metal is principally obtained by electrolysis of fused magnesium chloride from brines, wells, and sea water:<br /><br />Organic magnesium is important in both plant and animal life. Chlorophylls are magnesium-centered porphyrins<font color="white"><br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium<br /> <br />Not to get you too exited and to infer that this is what type of magnesium and possibly iron that is in the soil but, the thing that separates humans from plant-life is there molecular structure - Carbon based life forms on Earth is separated by: plant life has magnesium in them - animal life forms have iron. I'm sure someone may go into orbit about this little fact.<br /><br />Notice the abundance of magnesium??? Shouldn’t this also be one of the markers that they would be looking at for past water evidence and possible past life???<br /><br />I know there are a lot of different processes that have i</font></font></font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[JonClarke]

From a rocks perspective the Pathfinder results may have been off like a bucket of prawns in the sun. Much of the salts were probably in the dust anyway, so it is a definte postive detection.<br /><br />They yellowish material to me looks more like wind drifts to me, the colour suggests perhaps jarosite. Wind action does sort minerals according to density, it is not impossible for this to happen.<br /><br />Magnesium is common in a great many rocks - basalt contains about 8-12%. Iron is common too, typically 3-6%. At Merdiani the Mg is tied up in evaporitic sulphates, the iron in haematite and sulphates. So this is not a biosignature.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

There is certainly varying acidity. Strongly acidic waters don't make clays, but weakly to moderately acidic waters do. Clay alteration is common in the halos surrounding acidic hydrothermal systems, for example. Some carbonates, those of Mg and Fe, can be precipitated by weakly acidic conditions.<br /><br />As I understand it, the problem from a biological perspective is not that acidic conditions are hostile to life. As we all know, many microbes thrive under extremely acid conditions. The problem is the origin of life. Almost all the origin of life experiments point towards neutral to basic conditions being needed to form complex organics. the Archaean oceans on earth were also quite basic with supersaturation in bicarbonate and little sulphate. There are no sulphate evaporites known from rocks older than 2.5 Ga. What this suggests is that Mars was not a good site for life to have originated, based on what we presently know (which is very limited).<br /><br />But I must say that I am not comfortable with the universal acidity idea. Yes, there is evidence for acidity, but I am cautious of universal application of a few simple minded geochemical models based on a little bit of data.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">They yellowish material to me looks more like wind drifts to me, the colour suggests perhaps jarosite.Wind action does sort minerals according to density, it is not impossible for this to happen<font color="white"><br /><br />SOv3 has a low density and a low melting point of SOv3 is 16.8C ??? Don't know what it would be at 7 millibars in a CO2 environment. According to Dr. Steve Squyres the sulfates were wind swept to the bottom of the crater to help form the dunes therefore if the conditions were right and it was in sufficient quantities in a localized area there may have been some melting of the SOv3.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Dr. Steve Squyres - "And then those sulfate salts would blow around in the Martian winds and form dunes. And we see evidence of these dunes, we see evidence of water soaking the sub-surface, and we see occasional evidence of water coming to the surface. But it was a pretty dry place much of the time with most of the water beneath the ground."<font color="white"> <br /> <br /><br /><font color="orange">Iron is common too, typically 3-6%. At Merdiani the Mg is tied up in evaporitic sulphates, the iron in haematite and sulphates. So this is not a biosignature.<font color="white"><br /><br />I don't know. I don't have all the data and I would have to brush up on my biology more before I could venture a good guess besides carbon on what to look for in a at bio-type signature, can't find too much carbon around.</font></font></font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Once your SO3 is locked up as a sulphuric acid it isn't doing to separate out again. Once the sulphuric acid has reacted with the rock to form iron, calcium and magnesium sulphates, it isn't doing to separate back out either.<br /><br />The sulphates occur in the bedrock. As the bedrock is eroded it forms particles which are blown round by the wind, some forms dues on the crater floor. It's not forming now as a separate phase.<br /><br />The place to look for biosignatures would be to look at the sulphur isotope ratios, which can have a strong biogenically fractionation signature if biologically mediated. Iron can have a weak biogenic signature as well. It does not look like a good place to look for carbonates unfortunately, otherwise carbon isotopes would be useful.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">The place to look for biosignatures would be to look at the sulphur isotope ratios, which can have a strong biogenically fractionation signature if biologically mediated. Iron can have a weak biogenic signature as well.<font color="white"><br /><br />Can the MER rovers identify that?<br /><br />1P186774357EL5M1.7</font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[bonzelite]

jon, i got the Hartmann book. have begun reading it. thanks for the recommendation. book is neat. <br />

 

[paulanderson]

A good new AGU abstract on brines in simulated Martian conditions and again, surprise!... <br /><br />http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2005/2005GL024154.shtml<br /><br />Quote:<br /><br />"We have determined the evaporation rate of brine under simulated martian conditions at temperatures from 0°C to -26.0°C as part of our efforts to better understand the stability of water on Mars. Correcting for the effect of water build-up in the atmosphere and the lower gravity on Mars relative to Earth we observed a factor of almost 30 decrease in evaporation, from 0.88 mm/h at 0°C to 0.04 mm/h at -25.0°C. The results are in excellent agreement with the predictions of Ingersoll's (1970) theoretical treatment, lending support to the theory and our procedures. Thus brine formation will increase the stability of water on Mars not only by extending the liquid temperature range, but also by considerably decreasing the evaporation rate."<br /><br />Please note also that I am posting under my regular name now (as I usually do in forums), I'm not using the old psa_space anymore. Back to the 'proton' posting title now though I see, oh well.<br />

 

[bonzelite]

as an update, i've been pouring through the Traveler's Guide to Mars and it's really great. it can be somewhat "dry," to make a pun, reading, as it is basically a cursory crash course in geology, but it is wonderful reading and i really dig it (get it?). <br /><br />highly recommended for Mars freaks.

 

[paulanderson]

I saw that <i>Traveler's Guide to Mars</i> in the bookstore again today actually, and on my to-get list, but I just HAD to get (already) Squyres' <i>Roving Mars</i> (and love it), being a Mars freak and all...<br /><br /><i>Astronomy</i> magazine also has a good special Mars supplement issue (heavy emphasis on the rovers) out until February, for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.<br />

 

[JonClarke]

Glad you are liking it! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Roving Mars is great (my copy's autographed, so there!) but no substitute for Hartmann for background.<br /><br />I had the immense honour of driving Steve round town when he was here in August. He is is a very nice guy, as well as a great mission manager and first rate scientist.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

thanks for recommending it. the book is giving me a great foundation knowledge of mars. i'm cross-referencing some of the stuff with my mars globe, so i feel like a budding mars-o-phile on a quest. fun! <br /><br />i will get the other book, too. <br /><br />

 

[silylene old]

Bonez, Jon does have that effect. He inspired me to read up on geology subjects too. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

yes, he does. his knowledge and temperament seem to be infectious. i'll be better able to converse with him on his level before long --hopefully at least to some small amount!

 

[rlb2]

Why is JPL taking movie type images, same filter about 8 times or more??? <br /><br />Here are some of the places they are looking at.<br /><br />1P186865263EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

1P186866556EL2M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

1P188021994EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Thanks guys! That's made my week! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Nothing else for the imaging team to do while others were fiddling with the arm?<br /><br />There is evidence for "recent" movement - dunes, cracks in crusts etc. Maybe they were hoping to pick up some of this while they were stuck in one spot for so long. they could be lucky - Viking 1 imaged a small slip in a dune while it was on Mars.<br /><br />Just guessing of course!<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

that layered flat bright rock somewhat resembles shale or slate.