Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

[rlb2]

<font color="yellow">There is evidence for "recent" movement - dunes, cracks in crusts etc. Maybe they were hoping to pick up some of this while they were stuck in one spot for so long. they could be lucky - Viking 1 imaged a small slip in a dune while it was on Mars.<br /><br />Just guessing of course!<br /><font color="white"><br /><br />Good guess.<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />It may also be something to do with a more recent noticed cave-in that was deducted that may have been an effect from the vibration of the rover, see image below:<br /><br /><font color="yellow">12/03/05 - silylene posted on this thread - This one is real weird ( from Rakhir), from the photo group I linked earlier. The pattern in the soils seemed to have changed. <font color="white"><br /><br />Now I’m going to throw you another curve ball and this one may be even more controversial.<br /> <br />“Ice fog.” <br /></font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

Post deleted by rlb2 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

Endurance<br /><br />1P138920976EL5M1.5 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

“Ice Fog.”<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Benson, a professor emeritus at the Geophysical Institute, took advantage of what he considers excellent weather to gather ice fog, a Fairbanks phenomenon that occurs when the temperature drops below about minus 30 degrees Fahrenheit. Along the way, Benson described what ice fog is and why it transforms Fairbanks into a fuzzy dream world pierced only by bright lights.<br /><br />Ice fog is what happens when water vapor meets bitter cold air that can't hold any more water. When water vapor exits a car tailpipe when it's minus 40, for example, the water vapor temperature drops from about 250 degrees to minus 40 in less than 10 seconds. Water cooled that fast forms tiny ice particles, so small that ten of them could fit side by side on the finger-cutting edge of a piece of paper. Collectively, millions of these particles take form as ice fog, the cotton candy-like clouds that hang over our roads.<br /><br />Although not nearly the ice-fog machines that vehicles are, humans also are to blame. <font color="orange">In his report, Benson calculated people in the Fairbanks area exhaled and sweated about 58 tons of water vapor into the air each day in 1964.<font color="yellow"> Benson even averaged the water output of Fairbanks' dog population. He estimated there were about 2,000 outdoor dogs in Fairbanks in 1964. Those 2,000 resting dogs exhaled a little more than a half ton of water each day into the air, which Benson deemed "a conservative estimate because all of the dogs don't rest all of the time."<br /><br />Benson figured dogs, open water, cars, stoves and other sources pumped 4,000 tons of water vapor into the air each day in 1964. He estimated the current Fairbanks water output to be perhaps more than 6,000 tons per day.<br /><br />To catch ice fog, Benson repeated a cold-snap ritual he has performed with other GI scientists since 1961. He placed several sheets of polyethylene-covered plywood at sites around Fairbanks. <font color="orange">I</font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[bonzelite]

so essentially it is extremely low-ground based photochemical smog.

 

[rlb2]

2P188333465EL5M1.5 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

2P188334746EL5M1.5 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[jatslo]

Water?

 

[bonzelite]

the matted down flat claylike sand does look as if it were worked over by some type of fluvial event. it is compelling to arrive at that assumption.

 

[jatslo]

Looks like a tide pool and I expect to see a brine shrimp swim by soon. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Very interesting PIC. <br /><br />http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/home/index.html

 

[silylene old]

Very fine dusts can look deceptively like wet surfaces, liquids or muds. One does not need to invoke "wet" explanations. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

then a question arises insofar as how such flat areas came to be without the aid of a liquid modification process. the areas resemble past water ponding as seen on earth. <br /><br />i know a lot of things can possibly be the culprit. wind seems to be the the largest believable surface modifier on mars. if wind could erode such areas and render uniformly smooth sedimentary areas, as water would, then that is perfectly fine. <br /><br />perhaps because the wind on mars is so weak and gradually acting that it actually does create smooth areas that resemble dried puddle beds. in that case, the formations we are seeing may be three thousand years old, for example. because erosion, in one scenario, on mars is so slow, what we see may be the result of a slow-motion erosion cycle of only wind. <br /><br />i still don't fully believe that. but is highly possible.

 

[JonClarke]

Textbook wind erosion and deposition on steeply sloping crater rim and wall.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Dried ice requires liquid to turn to a heavy gas that acts as ground cover or fog, and I am curious, if this is what we are seeing here. The liquid could come as condensation. If it were colder, there would be numerous candidates, but for Mars, I can only think of frozen carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and/or water off the top of my head. The wind could classify minerals in this manner, and the finer pockets could give the illusion of wet. I mine concentrates of black sand that I bring home to dry out, and for the record, there are distinct differences between the appearance of wet and dry hematite rich fine sands. Believe me when I tell you, I classify minerals clear down to 200 mesh, and I see the same effect. Water or wind? I say water is actively compressing these sediments some how, and it only need be humid for my hypothesis to work. <br /><br />I would like to add that if these deposits are in fact wet, then the wind will have little affect in terms of shifting the sands; therefore, a movie will be justified in my opinion.

 

[rlb2]

<font color="yellow"> bonzelite says - so essentially it is extremely low-ground based photochemical smog.<font color="white"><br /><br />Note: Ice fog can also have a high concentration of CO2 in it.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">jatslo says - Water?<font color="white"><br /><br />Maybe - a long shot, something like low viscosity brine, ice fog, from ground seepage, etc and most likely as stated very-fine grain soil, dust fines. The rock structure is large enough to retain heat from the sun and any subsurface permafrost could melt, if it is under pressure, into a liquid before reaching the surface – mix that with sulfates and you have brine which may survive surface conditions and the colder it gets the slower it moves downhill, like molasses. The science instruments are examining it in detail, see image below.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">reikelIs says-there any mini-TES data taken specifically from such spots as the dark smooth looking area's pictured? <font color="white"> <br /><br />They are looking very closely at both Opportunity and Spirits sites. See image below<br /><br /><font color="yellow"> reikelIs says - I've never been able to find any mini-TES data corresponding to such a spot, specifically the dark smooth (wet looking?) areas in the image.<font color="white"><br /><br />I can’t find it either, Pathfinder was easier to find. If someone out there knows where to look for all the science data that is in the public domain please enlighten me. If it is all raw data then it could be a nightmare for the layman to try to decipher.<br /><br />2F188423204ER0M1<br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Well, the data is being released, you need to check the mission page for details. Of course the spectra won't be much use unless you have an understanding of thermal IR spectroscopy in the specified wavelengths and you know what the targets were. This is much deeper into the archieved data than i have been!<br /><br />Of course morphology alone can tell you a lot. One look at the last image, for example, shows very clearly:<br /><br />That the ripples are on steep slopes on the crater rim and walls. Not the place where water would either pond or flow slow enough to form ripples. <br /><br />There is a complete absence of channelling, levees, and other characteristic water eroded features, or channeled fans, characteristic of water deposition.<br /><br />The ripple morphology is also that of wind ripples - concentration of heavy grains on the upper parts of the ripples, for example - are indicative of wind, not water action. <br /><br />The abundant aligned grooves and pits on the rock surface resemble wind-carved ventefacts. Water does not fret surfaces in this way.<br /><br />Thus even without knowing severally extremely low temperatures and pressures extant at the site you can say therefore that wind is by far and away the most likely origin for these features.<br /><br />I am going to cast financial caution to the winds in the next three weeks and buy a digital camera. Once I have mastered it I think i will make a collection of small scale water and wind shaped features and post them here as an archive to show people what such things look like.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

I have some concentrates and what not in my garage; I should post a couple of PIC's of wet versus dry black sands. Maybe sprinkle a little gold in there for a bonus. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Sluices that are wind driven blow minerals up hill, whereas water sluices are ran downhill.

 

[bonzelite]

<font color="yellow">I don't want to overreact, but it seems that too many negative assumptions/ connotations are attached to certain simple innocent questions here at the SDC boards - which in turn generate knee jerk assumptive responses, rather than provide answers with associated data.</font><br /><br />+1<br /><br />

 

[JonClarke]

Ypour pics would be cool. We should start a thread, rather like the pictures of mars one, in which people upload features they think might be analogues of those seen by the rovers and other landers.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Earth Mars comparisons; sounds good to me. I am self taught for monetary reasons, but I would like to learn more. I bought my children a Golden Retriever Puppy for Christmas, so I can train it to keep them in check when we are out and about working sediments for precious minerals, or at least that's the plan. Until then, I find it difficult to do anything more than sampling in easy to get places. I would love to get back into the field, if not for monetary rewards, then exercise and entertainment.<br /><br />I will definitely read geology, mineralogy, and chemical related wear and tear brought about by the four known forces: Fire, Earth, Wind, and Water. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[JonClarke]

Golden Retrievers a among my favourite breeds. Dogs can be good for that sort of thing, if properly trained. My brother in law, who lives in the country, trained their dog to do that when they were little. She (the dog, not the B-i-L <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) was very good at it too.<br /><br />First with the photos gets to start the thread!<br /><br />Jon<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

I was trying to find a white Labrador champion, but the closest one I found was 200-miles away, and not available until Jan. 7 2006, which was a little late for Christmas. My oldest son is handicapped, partially blind, ...; he needs aid crossing streets, and told when barriers and obstacles are in harms way, etc. I am hoping that this dog will provide for some or all of this, and good therapy to boot.<br /><br />I have a cabin in Tillamook, Oregon on the Trask River, and my biggest fear is that he will get out somehow on his own without me knowing, and walk off the cliff. I've actually had dreams, where he is standing on the edge, oblivious to the edge, and I am 20-feet away and powerless to stop the unthinkable, whereas the only thing I can do is scream STOP, hoping that he will take his only chance.<br /><br />A dog will keep from the edge, I hope; out of the street, away from the deep end of the pool, etc. I have had dreams where he fell in the river, because I am a avid fisherman too, and I want to take him, but... If only I had a dog to herd him; to protect him, and I do; only now I have to wait for it to grow and get trained.<br /><br />I will see if I can pull together a small package related to dry and wet black sand, plus, some of my gold.

 

[silylene old]

A little off subject....but fun.<br /><br />We have a 4 year old border collie named "Ouzo". This is our second border collie (the first one died at age 13). He is so sweet, and so smart!<br /><br />I love labs too. Several of my friends have them. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Cool; the Red Planet Rover Squad; one Collie, one Retriever, and one Lab, because if Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars, then liquid water exists on Mars. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[rlb2]

I have three cats.<br /><br />1P188907462EL5M1.5 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>