Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

[bonzelite]

i will propose the answer could be yes: there is evidence for water ice clouds at mars (i think by now this is actually proven). and just as on earth, moisture from the surface rises to the air. this movement creates friction, leading to static electricity, as particles move up to the forming clouds --so you get separation of charge. as you probably already know, a copy machine's toner is nearly the same process. it is attracted to the drum via static charge. <br /><br />so we have moisture clouds that are often ice clouds on mars, high cirrus, in essence. freezing creates separation of charge even more. and the whole cloud becomes an eletrostatic conductor. it separates charge out from (+) top to (-) bottom.<br /><br />the cloud itself then becomes an electric dipole, and it charges the air around it, too, basically creating a plasma field. as the density of particles in the cloud comes to a critical mass, it begins to shed electrons from the bottom of the cloud. the negative charge creates a filament of high current density and it searches for the highest (+) point on the ground. <br /><br />the ground-to-air scenario you ask about is real and happens in an anode/cathode fashion, with the GROUND actually striking the AIR, the ground searches to "receive" (the anode --in this case composed of positive particles) the charge, seeking out the virtual cathode (the "giver") created by the cloud. <br /><br />this all is predicated on evaporation of water vapor. i will assume a similar process can happen with the evaporation of carbon dioxide to form CO2 ice clouds. so the lightning may or may not be from water. <br /><br /><br /><br />

 

[jatslo]

I thought you might know something about that. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Can this lightning knock down particles in either liquid and/or crystal form, and create micro-craters on the surface of Mars? I am curious if a water droplet could, in fact, survive a fall and create a micro-crater. Also, I was wondering of the Rovers were equipped with audio receivers, because I am curious to hear what Mars sounds like in retrospect to lightning, wind, etc. <br /><br />The Mars Polar Lander was equipped with an audio receiver, but it was destroyed, so there are no recorded sounds of Mars. That sucks! Earth is a planet with sound, and Mars is a planet, so Mars is a planet with sound too. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[bonzelite]

good question. <br /><br />i am very keen to believe, via cyclonic evidence as observed on the earth for decades, that the dirt devils we see in time-lapsed animations on mars are basically what you are saying, given you to take the thought a step farther:<br /><br />the nature of plasma, ie, lightning, GIVEN ENOUGH CHARGE DENSITY, can become "rope like" and or helix-shaped. if enough charge density builds up, we can have observed mega-lightning, even stratospheric lightning that literally draws electrons down from outer space to the ground, in exactly the same manner as we see in lightning clouds. <br /><br />because martian air is so dry, however, once charge builds up via evaporative friction, there is no real insulator medium between the cloud and the ground; there are scant other intermediate cloud layers. there is virtually no moisture insulator suspended in air. so the charge can be unfathomably gigantic and violent. as there is nothing to atmospherically dissipate it. <br /><br />so we have on earth, when the season is upon us, violently destructive tornadoes --which are in essence a species of lightning. the same is true on mars in it's smaller dirt devils. these are actually a form of lightning. and as on earth, there are observed and highly photographed tracts of martian countryside tattooed with dark and frenzied streaks --these are burnt electrical dross from electrical arcing from the dust devils. they leave tracks behind. not always, but given enough charge and viable surface materials, marks will remain. tornadoes on earth will occasionally leave the same markings. <br /><br />the thing is, i see no such marks left behind at the microcratering sites. as well, i believe the side of the planet that the craters are appearing has had yet no sightings of dust devil activity. so i am apt to believe, from my layman's assessment, that they may be of impact origin --yet do not dismiss electrical arcing just yet. i have more to learn about EM, as do the accredited PhD's

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">The thing I find really striking here is that if it hadn't been for the busted wire in the motor on Opportunity's arm, we would have blown right by this without seeing it. Ironic." <font color="white"><br /><br />Yes it is, sometimes were lucky when the chain of events created by chaos helps us find things where we least expect them.<br /><br />Thanks for that update.</font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"Yes it is, sometimes were lucky when the chain of events created by chaos helps us find things where we least expect them."</font><br /><br />It also points out the silliness of those who piss and moan at the "slow" pace of the rovers toward new ground. I still remenber the outrage from some when Spirit stayed at Independance outcrop over the Fourth of July holiday. Although a full science schedule was planned, "foul" was cried by those in a rush to see the top of Husband Hill. The scientists were wasting precious time with the rover, they said, just to take a holiday.<br /><br />Now... "Tantalizingly, Diana Blaney of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a member of the Mars Exploration Rover team, announced at the September meeting that a rock found by the Spirit rover, christened Independence, is claylike."<br /><br />An important piece of information, I'd say. So much for the "waste of time" at Independance.<br /><br />Sorry for the rant. I had to get that off my chest. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

by all means, rant away. i think the beckoning prospect of summiting the small hill perhaps superceded the concept of smelling the flowers on the way. perhaps it was divine intervention that jammed the arm, forcing the rover to stop and pay attention. <br /><br />this whole thing is one helluva drum roll to ----something....

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"perhaps it was divine intervention that jammed the arm, forcing the rover to stop and pay attention."</font><br /><br />I hope this means of rover drive planning is used sparingly.<img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rlb2]

Some interesting white stuff the Spirit Navigation camera imaged??? <br /><br />I left the image in grayscale. <br /><br />sol 720<br /><br />2N190282550E0M1.5 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

Here is a new color image from sol 721 of the rover tracks from above.<br /><br />2P190370515EL5M1 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Beautiful! Note how this layer is common in the Columbia Hills? And how it is also just beneath the surface? This tells us something quite important.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

Yes indeed, can’t wait to here what they dig up about these tracks, <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[bonzelite]

salts?

 

[JonClarke]

Most likely. Are they:<br /><br />1) A topography-mantling layer buried by later dust?<br /><br />2) Surface effloresence buried by dust?<br /><br />3) Soil horizon formed by down leaching of soluble salts by moisture?<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

if they are what i think they are, ie, salts of some type, briney water may be highly possible ---somehow. i'm not saying "life is rife." all i'm saying is what i just said. jury is out.<br /><br />however, question: can ice sheets be composed of brine?

 

[rlb2]

Here is some tire tracks from spirit sol 723.<br /><br />Notice the inset image at top left, they have their eyes and nose on the white stuff.<br /><br />2P190459388EL5M1<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[JonClarke]

You only need traces of moisture to move salts round in soils. Fogs and melting frosts are sufficient in hyper arid deeserts on earth to produce salt-rich horizons.<br /><br />Ice caps cannot be made of brine - salts are excluded from the ice lattice as water freezes. Even sea ice is quite pure.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

i was unaware that large scale deposition of salts can occur in hyper arid deserts. how long to move x amount of salt?

 

[JonClarke]

How long is a piece of string? It all depends on rates, and even in the same desert it does not happen everywhere.<br /><br />In the Atacama you often have thick soil salt accumulations sometimes metres thick of carbonate, sulphate, chlorides and more exotic salts too. That part of the world has been arid for 200 million years at least, and some of the land surfaces are over 30 million years old.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Ice is chalk full of bubbles that can give a accurate description of past, present, and future atmospheres. Core sampling from the polar regions will be interesting, and quite probable that I might live to see that day.

 

[bonzelite]

so the salts we're seeing in the rover images are more than likely Amazonian in age, ie, recent. <br /><br />for jatslo: yeah, it would be cool to have subsurface ice core samples. it would probably do well to clear up just what in hell the atmosphere of earlier mars was like. we're all anxiously awaiting that data --whenever it is obtained.

 

[JonClarke]

Yes features are recent, but we don't know what recent means on Mars. Even on earth it can mean anything from last year to tens of millions of years.<br /><br />Diurnal and annual exchanges between the atmosphere and regolith have been suggested for mars. How long this needs to happen to form a soil profile is everyone's guess.<br /><br />Yes, ice cores from the poles would be great. I would like to see this happen as well, but I don't think we will get a Mars polar station in our lifetime <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /><br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

Opportunity has been imaging the same spot with it instrument arm extended for over 20 sols. <br /><br />Something is up.<br /><br />1P190502268EL5M1.5<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Beautiful ripples! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

Thanks here is some more.<br /><br />1P190950171EL5M1.3 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

Notice the difference of these three images that was discussed before. It was first thought that the sand caved in by the rover vibration. Shifting sand or mud flows???<br /><br />They sure took a lot of time lapse images of this spot.<br /><br />1P190950171EL5M1.7<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>