Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars / New Phoenix Lander results

[bonzelite]

i have 3 cats, too. <br /><br />

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">i have 3 cats, too<font color="white"><br /><br />Cats are cool.<br /><br />They are really checking this out folks at both Opportunity and Spirits sites; I have a feeling something new is going to come out of this from their scientific instruments.<br /><br />Note this images I colorized was from a single frame non RGB filter image, the only images that are available from the front Hazcam camera. <br /><br />1F189530661E0M1<br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Staggeringly beautiful images, as always. These laminated sediments look as if they are trying very hard to be rippled. The absence of blueberries is very interesting too.<br /><br />Even allowing for a stuck arm, the rover is spending a lot of time in this area. Can't quite see what all the interest is yet.<br /><br />Three cats eh? I only have one, a beautiful spotted tabby called Oliver (lovely personality though not very bright, we love him dearly all the same). But every life should have nine cats, so far Oliver is significant cat 7.<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rlb2]

Thanks<br /><br />It just keeps on getting more interesting doesn’t it?<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">I will be looking for the eventual results and reasons why they are taking the extra time here with a little more interest than usual.<font color="white"><br /><br />Me too.</font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[bonzelite]

the area looks highly fluvially altered. the images are stunning. what mars lacks in moisture it more than makes up for it in beauty. it's one of the most staggeringly captivating deserts i've ever layed eyes on. hypnotic, almost hallucinagenic.

 

[centsworth_II]

Who could say it better than Steve Squyres?<br /><br /><i>"Over at Meridiani we're still at the Olympia outcrop, but we have come to realize that our extended stay here has yielded a very important find. We've spent a lot of time recently taking high-resolution Pancam images of the rocks around us at a range of lighting angles, to bring out fine details in the layering. And if you look at one of the Pancam images that came down on Sol 690, you'll see that we have now found the best example of small scale "festoon cross-bedding" that we've seen the whole mission. <br /><br />When you're talking about layering in rock, "festoon" geometry means little nested concave-upward shapes. They look like little smiles a few centimeters across. This kind of layering is seen in sedimentary rocks on Earth, and when it's found at small scales like this it provides solid evidence for deposition in flowing liquid water.... <br /><br />The thing I find really striking here is that if it hadn't been for the busted wire in the motor on Opportunity's arm, we would have blown right by this without seeing it. Ironic."</i> <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

i guess i was right. <br /><br />

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"i guess i was right."</font><br />Of course, saying that something was altered by water and saying it was formed in water are two different things.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

then pardon the oversight --the scalloped layering looked to me as if water were continually flowing around and through the rock. i've seen rocks like that before near where i grew up, and it nearly always easily crumbled to powder, or was hard and brittle and easily separated. rock like that was called "sedimentary rock" in school. it was found in water, or where water once flowed. rivers would carry sand and silt downstream and create creekbeds. and it would eventually collect and harden into stratified segments. they taught us that in 5th grade. and the martian geology pictured here illustrates this fluvial alteration. <br /><br />volcanic rock is "igneous rock." and this, too, exists on mars as basalt. so mars at one time was very geologically busy.

 

[jatslo]

I hope Opportunity does not get hit by a flash flood or anything, because it now seems possible that it might. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[JonClarke]

The trouble is at the medium and large scale satellite images there is no evidence of fluid flow. The small scale fretting of these beds is far more consistent with wind erosion of a poorly cohesive sediment.<br /><br />We know thes ediments were both formed and altered by water. However is no evidence so far that the landscape has been shaped by water more recently.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

JonClarke said"...<font color="yellow">no evidence so far that the landscape has been shaped by water more recently.</font> <---- LOL! There is no conclusive evidence that suggests that recent flowing fluidities, mostly water, have not flowed recently on The Red Planet. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[JonClarke]

"There is no conclusive evidence that suggests that recent flowing fluidities, mostly water, have not flowed recently on The Red Planet."<br /><br />There are two things wrong with your statement. First you are trying to argue a negative, which is very difficult. Second, you are extrapolating from a statement about a very small part of meridiani to the whole planet. <br /><br />I never said there was no evidence for recent flowing water at Mars. I said there is no evidence for recent flowing water at Meridiani. There is a big difference. I would regard the small gullies seen elsewhere as very good evidence for recent flowing water. But we don't see them here.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

JonClarke says, "<i>There are two things wrong with your statement. First you are trying to argue a negative, which is very difficult. Second, you are extrapolating from a statement about a very small part of meridiani to the whole planet.</i>"<br /><br />[1] Well, for starters, you can perceive my argument with a negative premise, but that really all depends on how my argument is perceived. For example, if I go off the premise that simulations show that liquidities, mostly water can flow on surface of The Red Planet, as stated in the experiment that started this whole shebang, then I perceive this argumentum of positive premisalum. Yeah, Yeah, I know, I need to work a little more on my Latin. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br /><br />[2] I was talking about the whole planet in general, and it is possible that I missile'd you out of context, but I stand by my original argument, which I think is a good one to defend. Since my argument is a good one to defend, then the probability that opportunity will spot flowing liquid in Meridiani just became that much sweeter. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Just messing with you. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[bonzelite]

i think liquid flow is extremely likely under ice sheets. surface or subsurface. <br /><br />as well, if there were ever a way to confirm somehow that there is subsurface heating, that would be very compelling. meaning, what if the aurorae discovered throghout the southern hemisphere are somehow tied not only to residual/fossilized vestiges of magnetized crust, but are actually fed in "real time" by an underground electromagnetic heat source? even a weak heating and pressure beneath deep underground could, perhaps, enable fluvial activity. the fluid could maybe reach all the way up to the surface as geysers or as temporary outflow rivulets . <br /><br />just a fantasy. but maybe somewhat possible. i'm going to allow for total surprise in mars' case. that world doesn't quit when it comes to enigmatic findings. we've barely dug in.

 

[jatslo]

bonzelite said, "<i>i think liquid flow is extremely likely under ice sheets. surface or subsurface. </i>"<br /><br />From what I understand, Mars is geologically dead according to geothermal telemetry; however, there is a great deal of unknowns due to the pixel size, if that is a correct way of presenting my case. For example, a temperature variant of a couple degrees, could imply that a small geyser, or hot spring is in the vicinity and undetectable by NASA's existing hardware and software. Ice can create cracks, and fissures that when friction is quantified, these cracks and fissure fill with water; tilt the ice sheet a little and the water runith under. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Some ancient floods in the United States were caused by such an event, and more recently, Antarctica suffered a breach that killed some people.<br /><br />"<i>as well, if there were ever a way to confirm somehow that there is subsurface heating, that would be very compelling. meaning, what if the aurorae discovered throghout the southern hemisphere are somehow tied not only to residual/fossilized vestiges of magnetized crust, but are actually fed in "real time" by an underground electromagnetic heat source? even a weak heating and pressure beneath deep underground could, perhaps, enable fluvial activity. the fluid could maybe reach all the way up to the surface as geysers or as temporary outflow rivulets . </i>"<br /><br />Remember that mud volcano that I showed you? Spirit is approaching something called Home Plate, and next to home plate there is something that looks like a hydrothermal vent, but it is taking forever for Sprit to get there.<br /><br />"<i>just a fantasy. but maybe somewhat possible. i'm going to allow for total surprise in mars' case. that world doesn't quit when it comes to enigmatic findings. we've barely dug in.</i>"<br /><br />You know, I see water everywhere; in fact, it is raining here right now, and I do not see any reason to think otherwise, in any case. I will

 

[bonzelite]

yes. i remember well the mud volcano. it is not an easily forgotten image. very bizarre and somewhat funny looking. it is assumed mars is magnetically dead, ie, it's core is long cold and dormant, leaving it's atmosphere unprotected from solar radiation, disallowing for any contemporary tectonic movement. <br /><br />or is it really dead? <br /><br />for example, the Earth's moon is "alive":<br />http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/top_10_cool_moon_facts-4.html<br /><font color="yellow"><br />Apollo astronauts used seismometers during their visits to the Moon and discovered that the gray orb isn't a totally dead place, geologically speaking. Small moonquakes, originating several miles (kilometers) below the surface, are thought to be caused by the gravitational pull of Earth. Sometimes tiny fractures appear at the surface, and gas escapes.<br /><br />Scientists say they think the Moon probably has a core that is hot and perhaps partially molten, as is Earth's core. But data from NASA's Lunar Prospector spacecraft showed in 1999 that the Moon's core is small -- probably between 2 percent and 4 percent of its mass. This is tiny compared with Earth, in which the iron core makes up about 30 percent of the planet's mass.</font><br /><br />could Mars be similar? --it has far more going for it than the moon: aurorae, dynamic weather in an atmosphere. is more massive. has myriad surface features that denote fluvial activity of times past, ancient and perhaps recent. <br /><br />even a tiny geologically active core could plausibly generate heat, tectonic movement, aurorae, weather.

 

[jatslo]

bonzelite said, "...<i>leaving it's atmosphere unprotected from solar radiation, disallowing for any contemporary tectonic movement.</i>" <br /><br />Leaving the atmosphere unprotected, yes, but disallowing for any contemporary tectonic movement, I think not. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> I hope that is not the mainstream science talking; besides, this hypothesis is based on the assumption that electromagnetic fields are solely responsible for tectonic displacement.<img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> There are plenty of other causes to consider. For example, I stratify sediments to extract gold mostly, and during this process I often think about how nature stratifies materials, because as a miner, I want to find large rich natural deposits, so that I do not have to work so hard.<br /><br />When I think about the dynamics within a mass of matter, I see stratification, in which the heaviest particles sink, thus pushing the lighter particles to the surface. Earth does not possess enough gravity to trap all the particles, and it is these particles that escape to space as dissipation, i.e. Hydrogen, etc. The diamond planet is a very old planet that has nothing left to fizz. It survived by ejection from its companion star. Its dark heart still beats as an independent who longs for the reunification with an interstellar mass, because it hungers... Of course there is an EM field on Mars, I have no reason to think otherwise. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[bonzelite]

yes. i am referring to contemporary theory: "mars is tectonically inert." the planet has geologic stretch marks and risidual magnetic field lines that remain as a skeletal record of a very active past. but...<br /><br />what i'm saying is that it very well may not at all be dead. that's why i cited the moon article. i mean look at the Earth's moon. it's dead, right? grey and airless? nope. it's got tricks. i am agreeing with you. <br /><br />your diamond planet idea and the way you described it is very compelling. <br />

 

[jatslo]

Well, it is easier for a EM field to stratify when the mass of matter is mostly molten as in what we possibly see on Venus. Mars, although likely still active to some degree, will more than likely to just fade away as the solar wind decomposes that which can decompose. One good smack from a comet can start the geological processes flowing again.

 

[bonzelite]

in this case, do you mean stratify to mean locally appearing near-surface traces, or the whole thing, ie, including a pole-to-pole, highly layered, magnetosphere?

 

[jatslo]

If you shake the entire planet violently, because you have god like powers, the heaviest particles will sink, and the lighter particles will rise regardless of EM Fields; however, if I held a magnet under the planet while i shook people off of it, the material will be classified as weight and magnetism. For example, when I bring my concentrates home to process in my makeshift laboratory (my garage), I use a magnet to remove magnetic black sand concentrates before utilizing chemicals to leech the nonmagnetic metal out. You see, I have two identical looking materials; one that is magnetic, and one that is not.

 

[bonzelite]

i just had an "a-ha" moment --cool --i get it. that is a great manner of explaining it! i saw it in my mind because your description was humorous and very vivid. <br /><br />it is easier to stratify if there is a flowing/molten state. this facilitates movement of material and separation of heavier elements. an impactor could jar the medium, perhaps exciting the aggregate. maybe to such an extent that an electrostatic field could be generated due to friction.

 

[jatslo]

Well, do not take my word for it. Aggregation of dense matter will create friction heat creating more spinning liquids that increase the gravity and EM field and field flux? Okay, I buy that, so when do we see lightning bolts shooting out of the surface of Mars and impacting the clouds, and does water play a significant role in this process?