Stopping time

[Takeoverangels]

Is there any type of force or particle scattered about the universe that would cause time to stop in that area? Thank

 

[rod]

Is there any type of force or particle scattered about the universe that would cause time to stop in that area? Thank

If my reading of General Relativity is accurate (may be) - time stops at the singularity of the black hole and slows down for you falling through the event horizon. Einstein General Relativity describes time dilation caused by gravity like clocks running slower on the surface of a white dwarf or neutron star compared to the surface of the Earth. Satellites orbiting Earth may record small time dilation differences between the satellite clock and the clock on the surface of Earth in the lab too.

 

[David-J-Franks]

Is there any type of force or particle scattered about the universe that would cause time to stop in that area? Thank

Hi, Takeoverangels. First, you need to decide whether there is even such a thing as time. I think around half of scientists think it doesn't exist. The most famous being Carlo Rovelli. I'm on their side. If you don't want to read his several hundred pages, there's a chapter in my book, 'Steady State of the Infinite', called 'Time' which summarises the reasoning for time not existing in 9 pages. (It'll change how you see time for ever-after!). Though the main reason for my book is to put forward my theory about the universe, also called 'Steady State of the Infinite', it also has chapters on; time, free will, randomness, cause and effect, information and order, black holes and the big bang. 20% of the book is available free due to Amazons 'Look Inside' feature!

rods answer above sums it up nicely, however personally for me, where he says “time stops”, I say things or motion stops. It amounts to the same, but I haven't used the word time!

Best wishes, David

Steady State of The Infinite: Time Free will Randomness Cause and effect Information and order Black holes Big bang: Franks, David J: 9781098852924: Amazon.com: Books

Buy Steady State of The Infinite: Time Free will Randomness Cause and effect Information and order Black holes Big bang on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders

www.amazon.com

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Sure create an area that quantum fluctuation doesn't exist. Like a black hole. or in empty space you might be able to use vast quantities of energy to create a void. nature doesn't like nothing though so as soon as you create it nature will fill it. nothing in the universe is the only thing that seems impossible.

 

[David-J-Franks]

Sure create an area that quantum fluctuation doesn't exist. Like a black hole. or in empty space you might be able to use vast quantities of energy to create a void. nature doesn't like nothing though so as soon as you create it nature will fill it. nothing in the universe is the only thing that seems impossible.

Hi, You say find an empty space to create a void. Wouldn't the empty space already be a void? Then, you go on to say that it's impossible to have nothing anyway, so how can you find an empty space in the first place? Can you clarify that please.

P.s. in my theory, 'Steady state of the Infinite', I also reason that that there's no such thing as absolutely nothing. So I'm in full agreement with you there.

Best wishes David

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Hi, You say find an empty space to create a void. Wouldn't the empty space already be a void? Then, you go on to say that it's impossible to have nothing anyway, so how can you find an empty space in the first place? Can you clarify that please.

P.s. in my theory, 'Steady state of the Infinite', I also reason that that there's no such thing as absolutely nothing. So I'm in full agreement with you there.

Best wishes David

In the universe empty space is filled with quantum fluctuation.
A void would be a place that has nothing in it.
IMO a void is the reason for quantum fluctuation and probably how the universe started.

Now creating a void with nothing in it, hmm if you could somehow do that i think you would answer many of the mysteries of this universe and create a place that time is irrelevant.

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Hi, You say find an empty space to create a void. Wouldn't the empty space already be a void? Then, you go on to say that it's impossible to have nothing anyway, so how can you find an empty space in the first place? Can you clarify that please.

P.s. in my theory, 'Steady state of the Infinite', I also reason that that there's no such thing as absolutely nothing. So I'm in full agreement with you there.

Best wishes David

P.s good theory because i think you are right about nothing being impossible. Well maybe other than at the beginning. My thinking is nothing has potential energy, a endless void starts everything in this universe and probably an infinite number of others.

 

[Mental Avenger]

Time is the eternal river. Let’s not try to swim upstream.
Time is a constant. It does not speed up, or slow down, or stop. It may be the only absolute constant in the Universe.

Having said that, our perception of time is a different matter entirely. Our perception can be altered by several things. Remember that General Relativity does not describe what actually happens, it describes what we can observe is happening. The train station/train car scenario is a perfect example of that.

 

[David-J-Franks]

Time is the eternal river. Let’s not try to swim upstream.
Time is a constant. It does not speed up, or slow down, or stop. It may be the only absolute constant in the Universe.

Having said that, our perception of time is a different matter entirely. Our perception can be altered by several things. Remember that General Relativity does not describe what actually happens, it describes what we can observe is happening. The train station/train car scenario is a perfect example of that.

Hi, I don't believe there's such a thing as time, there's only motion and regular or periodic motion. Everything around us is changing and in motion. Why do you need a concept of time to describe change and motion, can't you just say that change and motion are eternal?

My like is for your quote as below, I've always thought this, but I've never seen anyone write it down:

"Remember that General Relativity does not describe what actually happens, it describes what we can observe is happening."

I also think there's something similar going on with quantum mechanics. I think even on the small scale things are still deterministic and not probabilistic like quantum mechanics says. I think, likewise, it's only when we try to observe things that we mess reality up.

In the meantime, I challenge you or anyone else to say what time is, or describe it in any way. (without using the word time) Update - please ignore statement in brackets.

Best wishes, David

 

[Mental Avenger]

Your request is disingenuous. There is no way to write a definition of time without including the word time as a reference to what the definition is referring.

 

[David-J-Franks]

Your request is disingenuous. There is no way to write a definition of time without including the word time as a reference to what the definition is referring.

Sorry, no disrespect meant. Can it be done using the word time then?

 

[Mental Avenger]

Time is not an entity, like space is an entity. All events require a precursor, something that must occur before they occur, or something that causes them to occur. That requires a sequence, and that sequence proceeds in one direction. We can say that the sequence includes the events, and everything that occurs between the events, including a break in the sequence when there are no observable events. We measure that sequence, and the relative frequency and spacing of events, with time. It may not be an entity, but it exists.
An inch is not an entity, it is merely a tool used to measure the relative size of physical objects. It may not be an entity, but it exists.

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Hi, I don't believe there's such a thing as time, there's only motion and regular or periodic motion. Everything around us is changing and in motion. Why do you need a concept of time to describe change and motion, can't you just say that change and motion are eternal?

My like is for your quote as below, I've always thought this, but I've never seen anyone write it down:

"Remember that General Relativity does not describe what actually happens, it describes what we can observe is happening."

I also think there's something similar going on with quantum mechanics. I think even on the small scale things are still deterministic and not probabilistic like quantum mechanics says. I think, likewise, it's only when we try to observe things that we mess reality up.

In the meantime, I challenge you or anyone else to say what time is, or describe it in any way. (without using the word time) Update - please ignore statement in brackets.

Best wishes, David

I also don't believe that time is a real thing but i also believe that time exists as simple activity of quantum fluctuation.
Everything is in a room full of static electricity (quantum fluctuation) and entropy happening because of that activity.
No time arrow. no flow of time, no yesterday, no tomorrow just the activity of right now that will happen again almost instantly.

Not really time as anyone would think of but a persistent changing clock with very similar totals of each instant.

I think like the universe the quantum world will be very ordered with a bit of chaotic activity when an energy makes a balance.

 

[David-J-Franks]

Time is not an entity, like space is an entity. All events require a precursor, something that must occur before they occur, or something that causes them to occur. That requires a sequence, and that sequence proceeds in one direction. We can say that the sequence includes the events, and everything that occurs between the events, including a break in the sequence when there are no observable events. We measure that sequence, and the relative frequency and spacing of events, with time. It may not be an entity, but it exists.
An inch is not an entity, it is merely a tool used to measure the relative size of physical objects. It may not be an entity, but it exists.

Hi, Happy Thanks Giving if you're in the US, I'm in the UK so we don't celebrate that here.

You say: “Time is not an entity, like space is an entity. All events require a precursor, something that must occur before they occur, or something that causes them to occur. That requires a sequence, and that sequence proceeds in one direction.” I like all of that except the “proceeds in one direction”. For me, “proceeds to a new arrangement of matter, motion (energy) and forces”, would sound better. Of course in the current phase of our universe, that means the new arrangement is, on average, of higher entropy.

Then you say: “We measure that sequence, and the relative frequency and spacing of events, with time.” If I change that to: We measure that sequence, and the relative frequency and spacing of events, - with reference to a known periodic movement, such as the rotation of the earth or number of vibrations of a quartz crystal in a clock. Does that not describe what's happening without referring to time?

Also, when you say, “We measure, --------, with time”. I suggest we record with clocks, not “not measure with time”. Quoting from my book -

“Clocks do not measure anything, they don't have any sensors or detectors, they're not physically linked to the rotation of the earth or anything else in the universe, they are isolated mechanisms and are synchronised to the rotation of the earth by astronomical observation which can only ever be approximate.”.

So, I think, when using a clock, were only recording when those events happened in relation to the rotational position of the earth. It seems to me, more of a recording than a measurement.

For me, 1 hour is 1/24th of a rotation of the earth, not a unit of time, and is therefore just a number, not the 4th dimension. So, I still use hours as a convenience.

Finally, a perhaps trivial point, I'm not sure, relating to: “We can say that the sequence includes the events, and everything that occurs between the events, including a break in the sequence when there are no observable events.” I don't think reality takes a break or stops. I believe everything is in continuous and smooth motion, and that there's no such thing as complete stillness anywhere in the universe. So if there are no observable events it just means your not looking hard enough. I even suggest there's no such thing as the present or now, again because there are no stops.

Best wishes, David

 

[Brad Watson - Miami]

First, you need to decide whether there is even such a thing as time.

I've spent alot of time thinking about time. That duration is real, so time is real.

12 Aspects of One-Dimensional Time
7 aspects of regular time: beginning, end, past, present, future, void, and a constant - the speed-of-light.
4 aspects of hypertime: fast-forward, reverse, pause/stop, and before the beginning and after the end. Note how these resemble operating a video.
12. imaginary time.

 

[Mental Avenger]

Speed of Light = 1.802,614,041,067,005 MegaFurlongs/MicroFortnight

 

[David-J-Franks]

I've spent alot of time thinking about time. That duration is real, so time is real.

12 Aspects of One-Dimensional Time
7 aspects of regular time: beginning, end, past, present, future, void, and a constant - the speed-of-light.
4 aspects of hypertime: fast-forward, reverse, pause/stop, and before the beginning and after the end. Note how these resemble operating a video.
12. imaginary time.

Hi Brad, thanks for your reply.

I only see motion in the world, things move and change I think that's sufficient in itself to describe reality. An object just moves, I don't see why it needs something called 'time' to happen, it just moves, full stop.

I feel 'time' because I think my brain created it as a concept to help me make sense of the world. My brain acts a bit like a video recorder providing a short term video of the world. I think it's that passage of video going through my brain that gives me the feeling and illusion of time passing. So, I think 'time' is no more than a word used to express that feeling.

If I need to quantify that movement, I use a clock. Clocks don't measure anything, they have no sensors, they just tell me the current rotational position of the earth, and for me, that's got nothing to do with time.

Anyway, you given me a lot to research, thanks.

Best wishes, David

 

[Brad Watson - Miami]

I feel 'time' because I think my brain created it as a concept to help me make sense of the world.

Do you also feel 'space' is something your brain created as a concept to help you make sense of the world? What about before you were born?

 

[Brad Watson - Miami]

@Mental Avenger ,

"The humble shall inherit the Earth" is a better translation and is found in some Bible versions.

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Do you also feel 'space' is something your brain created as a concept to help you make sense of the world? What about before you were born?

I would say that nothing happened yesterday since it doesn't exist anymore, much like tomorrow is only a concept.
Time at best is a flexibly fabric or might not even exist at all.
Things would happen in a room full of static without time so that is all time might be just the activity of the quantum fluctuation.
Not time in the classic thinking but slow entropy anyway.

 

[David-J-Franks]

Do you also feel 'space' is something your brain created as a concept to help you make sense of the world? What about before you were born?

No, I think space along with matter has always existed,and I mean always including before our universe as well. However, I think my brain used to fool me into thinking that there was such a thing as completely empty space, but nowadays scientist seem to think, and I agree, that it's full of something like quantum fluctuations or or quantum foam or quantum Fields etc. I'm not sure which is in fashion at the moment.

 

[Mental Avenger]

I only see motion in the world, things move and change I think that's sufficient in itself to describe reality. An object just moves, I don't see why it needs something called 'time' to happen, it just moves, full stop.

Sorry to be the one to disillusion you, but time exists. There is nothing you can do about it. Every event in the Universe happens in sequence. That sequence IS time. Time is defined by its measurement, and the fact that it can be measured proves its existence. Time is a scalar quantity. Without including time, it is not possible to describe things such as acceleration, force, and inertia.

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Sorry to be the one to disillusion you, but time exists. There is nothing you can do about it. Every event in the Universe happens in sequence. That sequence IS time. Time is defined by its measurement, and the fact that it can be measured proves its existence. Time is a scalar quantity. Without including time, it is not possible to describe things such as acceleration, force, and inertia.

Are you measuring distance or time? Moving from point A to point B is just that with no proof that time happened.

To prove time is a real thing we need prove that time is part of the fabric of space or a byproduct of something else, or part of the structure of the quantum world or a necessity of the quantum world or just activity of the quantum world.

Our perspective as non quantum things that the quantum world acts upon, can easily make our perspective wrong.

Don't worry I'm in the time does exist camp, i just like to think how things can work without time.

My guess ....quantum fluctuation=time - gravity
Make a black hole with intense gravity and quantum fluctuation and time shrink to 0
Same effect happens here on earth in a very tiny way.
Move fast through the quantum fluctuation and you encounter less quantum fluctuation by traveling further faster.
At L speed you are traveling at the interval between space and the interval of time and encounter no quantum fluctuation.
Relativity with a twist.

 

[David-J-Franks]

I also don't believe that time is a real thing but i also believe that time exists as simple activity of quantum fluctuation.
Everything is in a room full of static electricity (quantum fluctuation) and entropy happening because of that activity.
No time arrow. no flow of time, no yesterday, no tomorrow just the activity of right now that will happen again almost instantly.

Not really time as anyone would think of but a persistent changing clock with very similar totals of each instant.

I think like the universe the quantum world will be very ordered with a bit of chaotic activity when an energy makes a balance.

Hi sorry for the delay in replying.

I also don't believe that time is a real thing but i also believe that time exists as simple activity of quantum fluctuation.

You say time is not real, but if quantum fluctuations are real, then you're saying time exists. Which is it? Instead of saying "time exists as simple activity of quantum fluctuation." why not just leave it at - "simple activity of quantum fluctuation exists," - full stop. Activity is just motion or change, it happens without the need for time. Then you can stick to the first part of your statement i.e. time is not real.

Everything is in a room full of static electricity (quantum fluctuation) and entropy happening because of that activity.

I thought static electricity and quantum fluctuations were two different things? Anyway, I think entropy happens because the particles in our universe are in constant motion and becoming more disordered, and also because it's expanding. I not sure how that relates to the quantum field, if at all, but that's beyond me. In other words, do you need quantum field theory to describe a cup of hot water getting cold or something breaking?

No time arrow. no flow of time, no yesterday, no tomorrow just the activity of right now that will happen again almost instantly.

I mostly agree with that, yes no flow of time, but only constant motion and change instead. Also, I would say that the "activity of right now" is in continuous motion and no 'instants' are involved. Reality doesn't pause or stop so you can call it a 'moment' or 'now'. So 'now' doesn't exist either. As soon as you say 'now' things have moved on. Past and now are just experiences in your mind.

Best wishes, David

Lots more about time in my book

Steady State of The Infinite: Time Free will Randomness Cause and effect Information and order Black holes Big bang: Franks, David J: 9781098852924: Amazon.com: Books

Buy Steady State of The Infinite: Time Free will Randomness Cause and effect Information and order Black holes Big bang on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders

www.amazon.com

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Hi sorry for the delay in replying.

You say time is not real, but if quantum fluctuations are real, then you're saying time exists. Which is it? Instead of saying "time exists as simple activity of quantum fluctuation." why not just leave it at - "simple activity of quantum fluctuation exists," - full stop. Activity is just motion or change, it happens without the need for time. Then you can stick to the first part of your statement i.e. time is not real.

I thought static electricity and quantum fluctuations were two different things? Anyway, I think entropy happens because the particles in our universe are in constant motion and becoming more disordered, and also because it's expanding. I not sure how that relates to the quantum field, if at all, but that's beyond me. In other words, do you need quantum field theory to describe a cup of hot water getting cold or something breaking?

I mostly agree with that, yes no flow of time, but only constant motion and change instead. Also, I would say that the "activity of right now" is in continuous motion and no 'instants' are involved. Reality doesn't pause or stop so you can call it a 'moment' or 'now'. So 'now' doesn't exist either. As soon as you say 'now' things have moved on. Past and now are just experiences in your mind.

Best wishes, David

Lots more about time in my book

Steady State of The Infinite: Time Free will Randomness Cause and effect Information and order Black holes Big bang: Franks, David J: 9781098852924: Amazon.com: Books

Buy Steady State of The Infinite: Time Free will Randomness Cause and effect Information and order Black holes Big bang on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders

www.amazon.com

Some good points David,

I used the room full of static electricity only as an example of what time might be.
A room full of quantum fluctuation and it's activity really needs no such a thing as time to cause entropy.
The semi chaotic activity could explain why hot water becomes cold water with ever changing minute differences (time)

Although i believe time as an entity doesn't exist i believe time as an activity does.

The expanding universe.
Difficult to say what is happening in the quantum world as the universe expands.
At some point for sure though an energy balance will need to be payed.
We simply can't have an ever expanding universe without some payback of energy at some point.

Maybe the quantum world runs out of steam and can't deliver more room.
Or maybe we just run into our neighbors universe bounce back and start over from the beginning black hole.