The case for a Titan rover mission

[silylene old]

I think the recent photo data is amazing and I can guarantee will raise far more new questions than it answered.<br /><br />It is time to consider a Titan rover mission.<br /><br />I now would rank the scientific case for a Titan rover above any other space mission (including manned), other than the advanced Martian rovers. [even above fixing the Hubble]<br /><br />The proposed Titan mission would consist of:<br />1. Orbiter - radar and infrared mapping. Data transmission to Earth. Aerobraked to orbit. Nuclear powered.<br />2. Rover - cameras, trench tool, heated probe to melt ices, microscope, rock abrader, GC-MS, etc. Nuclear powered. Tethered mini-helicopter with a small camera for a birds-eye view.<br /><br />I suggest it's time to plan and fund this mission.<br /><br />Feedback? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[najab]

><i>Mars has virtually no atmosphere.</i><p>As evidenced by its "wind, clouds, dust storms and lots of things commonly associated with a significant atmosphere. "</p>

 

[thalion]

Good call, but I don't think it should be our *top* priority. I still think Europa should take precedence--though a mission to that body would be considerably more difficult--with Titan second and Mars third. But all this is strictly from an exobiological standpoint; the incredible scenes unfolding from Huygens aside I think the choice between Titan and Europa is a tough one.

 

[arobie]

I happen to remember Mars' atmosphere causing problems for the rovers...such as dropping dust on the solar panels blocking out the sun.

 

[bobw]

That's exactly what I was thinking when I first saw the ground pictures; "I wish they could go over there." I agree with stevehw33 when he says "which might gel/gum/freeze up or otherwise coat the rover." I was thinking if they left it still overnight it could get encased in like a big glob of low temperature candle wax. <br /><br />Good thread from all participants. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[meteo]

How about a boat! However there would be an issue with the waves being higher in low gravity. Also, the viscousity of the liquid may be an issue, ie trying to boat through something with the consistency of maple syrup. If that could be solved you would get some great views of the geomorphology of the shores, and maybe cover greater distances. <br /><br />It would be an interesting design for the rock abraision tools an other equipment that is expected to take a pounding. I'm thinking of the equipment becoming more brittle.<br /><br />Yeah we definetly need to come back.

 

[dlee0708]

<i>Good call, but I don't think it should be our *top* priority. I still think Europa should take precedence--though a mission to that body would be considerably more difficult--with Titan second and Mars third. But all this is strictly from an exobiological standpoint; the incredible scenes unfolding from Huygens aside I think the choice between Titan and Europa is a tough one. </i><br /><br />Absolutely could not agree more. If a Titan rover mission is tons easier than Europa I might move Titan over Europa also, but I certainly wouldn't put it under the table.<br /><br />-Don<br />

 

[bobvanx]

A Titan rover has two things going for it that I can think of:<br /><br />1) The atmosphere allows for aerocapture, so you need less propellant upon arrival.<br />2) The radiation environment looks like it's friendlier than that of Europa. IIRC even our hardened computer tech is supposed to survive only 30 minutes on the surface of Europa before Jupiter cooks it.<br /><br />There's an animated gif at an amateur site, and there is <i>something</i> non-stationary in it. Flashes of stuff falling from the sky? reflections from distant lightning? Awfully interesting!<br /><br />A balloon would work great at Titan.

 

[robnissen]

I tend to agree with most here. A Europa lander/Rover first, followed by a Titan Rover. But I also agree completely that the case for the Titan Rover has become much more compelling to where it is a VERY close second to Europa. One problem I see with a Titan rover, is that we would definitely want to avoid a splash down, but still be close enough that it could visit the shore line. I think I may have just described the exact location of Huygens!! The problem is that with current technology, I don't believe we could make the landing ellipse small enough to guarantee "land" while still being close enough to the "sea" (if that is in fact, what the first pictures show) for the lander to be able to get to the shore line. While it might be possible to create an amphibious rover, I think that the environment of Titan is much too harsh to give us a high-enough confidence level that we could design such a lander that would survive both environments. Especially considering that we know nothing about the "sea," at least for now, like whether it even exists, how big are the waves it may have, etc. But in any event, this is just wonderful. Its great to be living in a time such as this, when all these new things are happening.

 

[mcbethcg]

Here are some ways to get the next probe to the shore line:<br /><br />1) Aim for a sea. After aerobraking, deploy a balloon, to keep it from descending to the surface of the sea. Drop a light, floatable anchor from the probe that skims the surface of the sea. When the balloon/probe/anchor are carried to the shore by winds, release the balloon. This assumes that there are winds, and that the sea is not tar-like in consistency.<br /><br />2) same as above, except have the probe in the boat. The ballon acts as a sail, draging the probe to shore. Probe hops to shore with a small explosive or rocket.<br /><br />3) Make it a lifting body that glides to location. This requires a brilliant computer, unfortuately.

 

[silylene old]

Why a Titanian rover?<br />1. The science would be incredible<br />2. The pictures would be SPECTACULAR and public interest would be HUGE...thus generating more funding and more missions (globally).<br />3. I am very curious and selfishly want to know more.<br /><br />Why should this be a higher priority than Europa?<br />1. Europa will just be a frozen iceworld, in the press and public's eyes. Boring (in their ignorant minds) = less funding for the future.<br />2. The interplay of solid and liquid at the coastlines and riverbeds of Titan to me, is far more interesting than a 10 km thick icecap.<br />3. The <i>chemistry</i> of Titan is more interesting than the chemistry of Europa. I am speaking as a chemist. (Yes, Europa is very interesting too).<br /><br />Why a land mission, not a sea-mission?<br />1. Rocks are on land.<br />2. Rivers and streams are on land.<br />3. You can drill the soils and travel to different landforms.<br />4. After a while, floating on liquid is...well...just floating on liquid.<br />5. Floating on liquid will bore the (ignorant) press and public after the first 2 days, and boring = less funding.<br />6. All that said, a sea-mission would be very very interesting too, just not as interesting.<br /><br />Why a tethered camera floating above the rover?<br />1. Helicopter or balloon, or even a tall 30m extendable mast. I don't care, it is the <i>result</i> I am interested in.<br />2. The orbiter will get a poor airial view due to clouds.<br />3. We need to know where we are going to plan the best exploration routes. I absoultely don't want to miss the stream just over the next rise, because we couldn't see it was there !<br />4. Aerial pictures = spectacular = good press = more funding.<br /><br />The current Titanian mission is very mush like the first Pioneers to Saturn, or the first Lunas to the moon....teaser pictures that make me want more! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[thalion]

I can't argue that Titan's chemistry--what we know of it so far--is definitely more interesting that Europa's--also, what we know of Europa's chemistry so far. But from an exobiological standpoint, Europa should take priority, as it is definitely the best place in the world to look for liquid water. That said, I can't deny either that visually and dynamically Titan is a sexier place, at least on the surface, and public interest is a linchpin of space exploration. However, we shouldn't let PR alone determine where we do and don't go, IMO. As I said before though, Titan is indeed a sexier place on the surface.<br /><br />RobNissen's post raises an interesting point--we really don't know enough about the surface yet to know where to put a lander/rover down safely, and with the maximum science return. If Cassini can't conclusively answer this question, then a Magellan-style radar mapper would be ideal, IMO. Of course, there's always just taking a chance.<br /><br />Another issue with a rover mission--and I'll be the first to admit that I'm no engineer--is how to deal with that cold weather. It's one thing to survive them for a couple of hours on battery power, and another to be subjected to those conditions for days, if not months and years. But perhaps I'm exaggerating the significance of this.<br /><br />Whatever surface mission goes to Titan next, I just hope it has a met instrument package. I've got nothing but love for the geo guys, but let's toss a bone to us in the atmosphere crowd every so often, m'kay? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[conventi]

Stevehw33 says: "Europa is as dead as are all the other sites in our solar system."<br /><br />Have you visited all the places and checked it out yourself ? NASA, ESA and all the others could spare so much (tax)money for these useless missions if they would only listen to your wisdom. <br />Sarcasm aside, I think we cannot rule out the possibility of microbiologic life in our solar system. We haven´t found anything yet, and maybe never will. But If we don´t search, we never will find anything. This is what space exploration is all about, at least for me.<br /><br />Conventi<br />

 

[silylene old]

STOP.<br /><br />this is a discussion of the Titan rover, not the probability or ones faith in life (or lack thereof) on other planets/moons. <br /><br />STOP<br /><br />I have seen this same old argument, same handful of people endlessly debating the same tired points over and over in other threads.<br /><br />STOP<br /><br />Discuss a Titan rover.<br /><br />THANK YOU. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Bravo. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[bobvanx]

Absolutely!<br /><br />Let's be responsible community members and support the topic of the thread. It's easy and childish to divert these things. As community members, we owe each other the self-restraint of being able to stay on topic.

 

[tap_sa]

Nuclear powered rover would have plenty of excess heat due to the poor efficiency of thermoelectric conversion, so keeping things warm shouldn't be a big problem. Perhaps some of that heat could be used to operate a hot 'air' balloon to lift the tethered imager. Maybe even the rover itself, might be handy if one gets stuck in some tar pit!

 

[centsworth_II]

<i>"...excess heat... might be handy if one gets stuck in some tar pit!"</i><br /><br />That heat might be what gets the rover stuck in the first place. <br /><br />Also, ever walk on clay mud (or tar) and have an ever thickening layer stick to your shoe bottoms and sides? Some of the stuff on the surface of Titan may do the same to the rover wheels. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[tap_sa]

<font color="yellow">"That heat might be what gets the rover stuck in the first place."</font><br /><br />Good point, you don't want the rover to heat the ground below it too much, especially if driving on some sort of ice <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <br /><br /><font color="yellow">Also, ever walk on clay mud...</font><br /><br />Last summer and fall was like a monsoon over here so yeah, too much. Everything was soaked till winter,harvesting was a royal pain in the a**...<br /><br />I wonder if the Titan rover should be just a balloon instead of MER type crawler with wheels, leisurely aviating around doing occassional ground sampling by lowering itself or instrumentation at the end of a cable.

 

[yurkin]

Maybe what we need is a Swamp Buggy. Nasa could hire some of the good old boys that build them to work at JPL. That should be interesting.<br />http://www.airboat-transportation.com/marsh_swamp_Buggies.html<br />

 

[alturas]

Or maybe some treads to spread out the weight of the rover, but that may have weight consequences. And ya, Tap_Sa, I like the ballon idea. It would also allow us to explore the lakes, where a rover obviously couldn't go.

 

[nacnud]

I think you would need an orbiter to find out much more about titan before a rover mission could be designed with confidence, doesn't stop us speculating though <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I think a couple of missions that would be good as references, even though they haven't happened yet are the Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter and the Mars Science Laboratory. I think your going to need something with the delta-v capabilities of JIMO to get into titan orbit easily and the radar would be needed to image the surface to find a landing spot. MSLs precision landing capabilities and power supply would also be very useful. One extra thing that I would like to add would be an arm that has the capability to reach any part of the rover so it can 'scratch' itself if it needs to ie pulling out rock from wheels etc. <br /><br />If the winds allow perhaps the most ground could be covered with an airship and rover combination with the radiological power supply on the airship and a small battery powered rover to *** off and collect samples. Something like the Skykitten would be able to cruse around and land on either solid ground or liquid and deploy rovers/swimmers to scout around.<br /><br />

 

[rlb2]

Here is my entry for a Titan rover, its called the Windsurfer. <br /><br />A balloon launched on Titan could be relatively small compared to Mars. Let the wind pull <br />a rover for hundreds and possible thousands of Kilometers during the lifetime of its mission.<br /><br />Paper written and presented at the Mars Society Conference.<br /><br />http://home.comcast.net/~arrow-space-innovations/Windsurfer.html<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[spayss]

A rover on Titan means money taken from other projects.<br /><br /> I'd prefer to replicate this mission on a few other moons in the solar system and then decide on priorities. A Titan rover. Certainly. But not at this time.

 

[mikejz]

Any statement about surface winds? I think that might be a big factor in if a rover being an option. (In addition to the option of wind power)