New Space Needs a Mission

[Boris_Badenov]

<p><font size="2">The New/ALT Space Corporations need a mission to capture the imagination of the public. At this point in time there are more people in the US alone that believe the Mahdi is going to return than know that private individuals & Corporations are taking the first baby steps in reaching the stars. So&nbsp;what they need is a planned mission that will catch the imagination&nbsp;of the public like the&nbsp;Mercury/Gemini/Apollo missions did. A mission&nbsp;like this needs to be right on the edge of impossible, with clearly identified goals & even the possibility of turning a profit (maybe not a profit but just a return on investment would be okay). </font></p><p><font size="2">Such a mission could be&nbsp;an Asteroid Rendezvous, landing on the South&nbsp;Lunar Pole or a Martian&nbsp;Moon. A landing at any of these places could bring back samples that would be worth many times the value of any precious metal you reference.</font></p><p><font size="2">Without a clearly planned goal that is trumpeted to the public, I doubt that we will see anything happen with public support in the next 25 years.</font>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[cosmictraveler]

<font size="5"><font face="Arial">A large orbiting </font><font face="Arial" color="#ff8000">space colony</font><font face="Arial">, of the kind proposed by Princeton's Gerard K. </font><font face="Arial" color="#ff8000">O'Neill</font><font face="Arial">, consisting of an immense rotating aluminum cylinder, the inner wall of which would be inhabited. The structure would be built of material mined from the Moon or asteroids. O&rsquo;Neill linked his ideas with Peter Glaser's Solar </font><table border="0" cellpadding="5" width="122" align="left" bgcolor="#444444"><tbody><tr><td><font face="Arial" size="2"><strong>Recommended book</strong></font> <hr />

 

[Boris_Badenov]

<font size="2">An O'Neill colony would not be something that could be done in the near future. We need something that could be planned & executed in the next 5 to 10 years.</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[Stewie_Griffin]

What about a mission to venus?<div><br /></div><div>a manned ballon that would stay in Venus's upper atmosphere where conditions are very mild.</div><div><br /></div><div>A small parachute would be all that it would need to slow down inside&nbsp;Venus's&nbsp;super dense atmosphere and to ascend back to venusian orbit ballast could be&nbsp;dropped&nbsp;from the airship.</div><div><br /></div><div>Other than that it could be based on the apollo mission. &nbsp;The&nbsp;equipment&nbsp;could be launched into earth orbit by a couple of Falcon 9 heavy's</div> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>What about a mission to venus?a manned ballon that would stay in Venus's upper atmosphere where conditions are very mild.A small parachute would be all that it would need to slow down inside&nbsp;Venus's&nbsp;super dense atmosphere and to ascend back to venusian orbit ballast could be&nbsp;dropped&nbsp;from the airship.Other than that it could be based on the apollo mission. &nbsp;The&nbsp;equipment&nbsp;could be launched into earth orbit by a couple of Falcon 9 heavy's <br />Posted by Stewie_Griffin</DIV></p><p><font size="2">That sure would be on the edge of possibility. I wonder if the technical challenges would be worth the effort though?<br /></font></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[mr_mark]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>That sure would be on the edge of possibility. I wonder if the technical challenges would be worth the effort though? <br /> Posted by boris1961</DIV><br />I think a manned lunar orbital mission from Spacex would be the way to go. That would be pushing the edge of "their" possibilties and be the first mission back to the moon beating all countries. That's on the edge of real possibilty and could spark interest in private space.

 

[Boris_Badenov]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I think a manned lunar orbital mission from Spacex would be the way to go. That would be pushing the edge of "their" possibilties and be the first mission back to the moon beating all countries. That's on the edge of real possibilty and could spark interest in private space. <br />Posted by mr_mark</DIV></p><p><font size="2">It sure would be an eye catcher, & well within their abilities. Personally though,&nbsp;I'd like to see them put boots on the ground rather than just a flyby.&nbsp;<br /><br /></font></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[ThereIWas2]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>It sure would be an eye catcher, & well within their abilities. Personally though,&nbsp;I'd like to see them put boots on the ground rather than just a flyby.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by boris1961</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;That would require a lander, which SpaceX is not working on.&nbsp; I think a flyby they could manage on their own. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><span class="postbody"><span style="font-style:italic"><br /></span></span></p> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;That would require a lander, which SpaceX is not working on.&nbsp; I think a flyby they could manage on their own. <br />Posted by ThereIWas2</DIV><br /><br /><font size="2">While SpaceX has the Capsule & the engines, I'll bet somebody else (Armadillo?) could get a lander put together in the necessary time frame. They'd need living space too. Bigelow might be able to help there.</font></p><p><font size="2">I doubt any of them could go it alone, but if they teamed up they just might be able to pull it off.</font></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[Stewie_Griffin]

However, you have to remember the defining factor of new space: &nbsp;they're companies, &nbsp;they're not going to go to the moon just to prove that they can. &nbsp;They'll only do it if there's a profit to be made. &nbsp;If a mission was ever to launched to the moon by SpaceX, Armadillo, etc &nbsp;there would first need to be somebody willing to pay them for some reason. &nbsp;Possibilities include: a research organization buying lunar samples from them, some kind of advertising deal that the astronauts could do. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[docm]

<p>Or the motivation could be a demonstration of technological capability.&nbsp; </p><p>Car companies race, media companies do high end demo rells etc. etc.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Or the motivation could be a demonstration of technological capability.&nbsp; Car companies race, media companies do high end demo rells etc. etc. <br />Posted by docm</DIV><br /><br /><font size="2">That is precisely what I was suggesting. They need to do some kind of demonstrator mission that'll catch the public's interest. If they can turn a profit too so much the better, but it has to incidental to the mission itself.</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[nimbus]

Bill Stone's is the only project I can think of that fits this criteria. &nbsp;Earth orbit Hiltons just don't cut it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Bill Stone's is the only project I can think of that fits this criteria. &nbsp;Earth orbit Hiltons just don't cut it. <br />Posted by nimbus</DIV><br /><br /><font size="2">If you're talking about the daredevil, mine the lunar ice guy, yeah, I think you just might be right.</font></p><span><font size="2"><p><span><font size="2">Bill Stone: Explorer, inventor and outer space dreamer</font></span></p></font></span> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[mr_mark]

Bill Stone's ideas are interesting just not within the capacity of Spacex's current technology. A lunar orbital mission would spark public interest, put governments on notice (by beating them back to the moon) and jump start deep space exploration, all without any new development (except a reenforced heat sheild for dragon.) Could happen before 2015.

 

[Boris_Badenov]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Bill Stone's ideas are interesting just not within the capacity of Spacex's current technology. A lunar orbital mission would spark public interest, put governments on notice (by beating them back to the moon) and jump start deep space exploration, all without any new development (except a reenforced heat sheild for dragon.) Could happen before 2015. <br />Posted by mr_mark</DIV><br /><br /><font size="2">While&nbsp;the capability is&nbsp;not within the tech available in house&nbsp;to SpaceX they are available. Blue Origin & Armadillo could very conceivably have a lunar lander available within the next couple of years. Bigelow will definitely have a hab module ready for both orbit & surface use in the appropriate time. The willingness to do it might be the only thing holding them back.</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[ThereIWas2]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>While&nbsp;the capability is&nbsp;not within the tech available in house&nbsp;to SpaceX they are available. Blue Origin & Armadillo could very conceivably have a lunar lander available within the next couple of years. Bigelow will definitely have a hab module ready for both orbit & surface use in the appropriate time. The willingness to do it might be the only thing holding them back. <br /> Posted by boris1961</DIV></p><p>I assume Blue Origin/Armadillo do not care how their thing gets to lunar orbit. &nbsp; Bigelow's plans are to assemble a surface station in lunar orbit and bring it down on its own engines.&nbsp; No word on how far along that whole power bus thing is.&nbsp; This could be two to three F9H launches to get everything up there.</p><p>Quite a bit easiser if it is just an Apollo reinectment using Dragon and Armadillo.&nbsp; Combining it with a Sundancer on the surface would be a wowzer, but pushing things quite hard.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><span class="postbody"><span style="font-style:italic"><br /></span></span></p> </div>

 

[mr_mark]

Another thing that has never been done by anyone would be lunar orbital insertion then upon reentering earth orbit docking with the ISS. A very tricky manuver considering speed upon entering earth orbit. You would have to enter at right trajectory, brake and then dock with the ISS. This would be quite a feat and would not need a third party to achieve. Not sure if it's even possible considering orbital angle of ISS Let's do the math on this one.

 

[Boris_Badenov]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I assume Blue Origin/Armadillo do not care how their thing gets to lunar orbit. &nbsp; Bigelow's plans are to assemble a surface station in lunar orbit and bring it down on its own engines.&nbsp; No word on how far along that whole power bus thing is.&nbsp; This could be two to three F9H launches to get everything up there.</p><p>Quite a bit easiser if it is just an Apollo reinectment using Dragon and Armadillo.&nbsp; Combining it with a Sundancer on the surface would be a wowzer, but pushing things quite hard. <font color="#003399">ThereIWas2</font>&nbsp;</DIV></p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Another thing that has never been done by anyone would be lunar orbital insertion then upon reentering earth orbit docking with the ISS. A very tricky manuver considering speed upon entering earth orbit. You would have to enter at right trajectory, brake and then dock with the ISS. This would be quite a feat and would not need a third party to achieve. Not sure if it's even possible considering orbital angle of ISS Let's do the math on this one. <font color="#003399">mr_mark</font></DIV></p><p><font size="2">Now you guy's are talking.</font></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[bdewoody]

<font size="2">I still have a gut feeling that as long as the return to earth involves a period of time where the returning capsule or orbiter glows white hot and could be mistaken for a meteor that excursions into space will be limited to professionals who are aware of the risks and still willing to take them.&nbsp; If we ever discover/invent a less violent means of making the descent space will finally open up to the masses.</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I still have a gut feeling that as long as the return to earth involves a period of time where the returning capsule or orbiter glows white hot and could be mistaken for a meteor that excursions into space will be limited to professionals who are aware of the risks and still willing to take them.&nbsp; If we ever discover/invent a less violent means of making the descent space will finally open up to the masses. <br />Posted by bdewoody</DIV><br /><br /><font size="2">It's already been invented. Google "Bimodal Nuclear Thermal Rocket" & "Propulsive Capture" & you'll find lots of info on how to get around Aerocapture.</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[Vojta]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>In 1973, George Hazelrigg, also of Princeton, suggested that the L4 and L5 Lagrangian points might be ideal locations for O'Neill's large habitats. </DIV></p> <p>I'm pretty sure that Earths L4 and L5 points are actually unstable when you account for everything so that would defy they point of building them there.</p> <p>I'd love to see a private trip to the moon, even if its just a fly-by.&nbsp; Maybe it could even be done as a future X-prize, that would help offset the costs for the winner.&nbsp; I know I would pay to see the moon up close (if I had the money that is ). </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[nimbus]

Didn't Rutan hint at a moon elliptical flown at a couple dozen feet altitude ? &nbsp;I don't remember if he'd said it as something he'd do, or as something he expected to be done once commercial space developments picked up. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Didn't Rutan hint at a moon elliptical flown at a couple dozen feet altitude ? &nbsp;I don't remember if he'd said it as something he'd do, or as something he expected to be done once commercial space developments picked up. <br />Posted by nimbus</DIV><br /><br /><font size="2">Burt Rutan said he wanted to go to the Moon & he was (61?) so he'd better get going on his plan. I've never heard him follow up on that statement.</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> I'm pretty sure that Earths L4 and L5 points are actually unstable when you account for everything so that would defy they point of building them there. I'd love to see a private trip to the moon, even if its just a fly-by.&nbsp; Maybe it could even be done as a future X-prize, that would help offset the costs for the winner.&nbsp; I know I would pay to see the moon up close (if I had the money that is ). <br />Posted by Vojta</DIV><br /><br /><font size="2">Earth L-4 & L5 are unstable for objects beyond a certain size. Over that size it takes increasing amounts of Dv to keep the object there. This Dv is orders of magnitude less than what would be required for station keeping outside of a Lagrangian point.</font>&nbsp; <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>