The Chronicles of Narnia

CalliArcale · Nov 20, 2005

I have to agree -- "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" has always been a favorite of mine. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> It's a series of adventures, during which our heros mature greatly. I've liked "The Last Battle" ever since I first read it. I like all of the Narnia books, really. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> It's hard to pin down a favorite. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

JonClarke · Nov 21, 2005

Indeed is is hard to pin down a favourite. "The Horse and his boy" is another one I really like. But they all have wonderful scenes. Just some of mine LtQatW - the death and resurrection of Aslan PC - Capsian's discovery of the real Narnia, the Pevensies discovery of where they have been transported to VotDT - The transformation of Eustace, the Dufflepuds, the dark island, Ramandu, the edge of the world, the lamb who is the Lion. CS - Jill's encounter with Aslan, Puddleglum, the giant's cook book (deliciously macabre!), the dialogue with the green witch, the mountain beyond the world. HahB - Avaris, Shasta's meeting with Aslan, the end, where Avaris and Shasts become so used to quarrelling and making up that when they are adults they get married so as to do so more convienently. MN - the Wood Between the Worlds, the dead city of Charn, the creation of Narnia, the apple of youth. LB - Tirian, Jewel, the end and begining of Narnia, Emerth, Aslan revealed. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

kane007 · Nov 21, 2005

Well I put my hand up as a non christian who really enjoyed - and was greatly influence by the morals of - all these books as a child. Started reading at arround 8 years old so it has been a really long time since but I seem to remember that "lion" was chronologically the 2nd book though written/published/read first, or maybe followed later as a prequel - Star Wars anyone? This definately created my vorasious appetite for reading.

lampblack · Nov 22, 2005

Well I put my hand up as a non christian who really enjoyed - and was greatly influence by the morals of - all these books as a child. Started reading at arround 8 years old so it has been a really long time since but I seem to remember that "lion" was chronologically the 2nd book though written/published/read first, or maybe followed later as a prequel - Star Wars anyone? This definately created my vorasious appetite for reading. I agree, Kane. The books absolutely stand on their own merits -- although I would have to add from my own experience that being Christian adds an extra dimension to the enjoyment of reading them. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> I think it's interesting that C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were close friends. I've never heard anyone discuss Tolkien in explicit religious terms the same way folks tend to talk about Lewis' Narnia series. But the two men talked a lot, and they moved in the same professional and social circles. So isn't it fascinating how both sets of books possess precisely the same kind of magic? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Just tell the truth and let the chips fall... </div>

CalliArcale · Nov 22, 2005

Yes, it is fascinating! I think there are three reasons why people don't notice the influence of Christian theology as much in Tolkien: 1) Unlike Lewis, Tolkien was a professional linguist. Lewis was a profesional theologan, and wrote a great many books on the subject, so if you know anything about the man himself, you're likely to look for it in his books. Tolkien's Christianity wasn't as overtly obvious. 2) Tolkien's intentions were somewhat different. He was striving to create a mythology for Britain, and so he took a great deal of information from non-Christian sources which had the sort of mythology he was looking for. In fact, many of the sources were openly pagan, coming from Norse and Finnish mythology. He was also more focused on the languages (being a linguist) and devising a plausible backstory for each of the languages. In a way, I suppose you could say that Tolkien wrote hard fantasy, while Lewis wrote soft fantasy (and I mean that like "hard sci-fi" and "soft sci-fi"). In the latter, the philosophy is more evident. In the former, it's the structure that's more evident. 3) Most people only read "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings". If you want to see the Christian influences on Tolkien, you really need to read "The Silmarillion". Most are put off by the sheer density of the book, though. Tolkien's attention to detail sometimes works against him in that respect -- his works aren't always as accessible. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

JonClarke · Nov 22, 2005

Good observations calli. I would add that each came to their stories by different routes. For Tolkien, as you note, his stories partly came from the designto invent a backstory for worlds. The Simarillion arose out of an old english poem that mentioned "Earendel" being sent to Middle Earth. Who was Earendel, why was he sent, and by whom? The Hobbit" can be traced to a line of doggel Tolkien scribbled on an old exam paper on a boring afternoon. "In a hole in a ground there lived a Hobbit." What were hobbits? Why did they live in holes? Lewis's creative imagination worked differently. He always began with a mental image and then developed that into a story. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" began as a mental picture of a faun carrying parcels through the snow. Narnia, the eternal winter, the white witch all developed from that. then Aslan came into the story via Lewis's imagination transformed it. For both their own personal faith was strongly reflected in their writings, it was just developed differently. Tolkien wrot about an imaginary past of our world, and was therefore constrained by the religious history as to what could and could not be included. Lewis wrote about a different universe and so had less of a constraint into what On another topic, Lews was not a formally trained theologian but a taught medieval literature. However he did think and write deeply about theology, part of his appeal is that me could communicate theological ideas to the common person, not from a particular sectarian position but as a mere Christian. Back to Tolkien, I agree that the Sillmarilion needs to be read to understand the larger picture of LOTR, and the many allusions that are other obscure (but serve to give the (correct) impression of a great imaginative landscape behind these stories. Who were Beren and Luithien? Who was Elbereth, whom the Elves revered? Why was Galadriel an exile, and why were the other e <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

lampblack · Nov 22, 2005

I hadn't ever really considered Tolkien's pagan influences, Calli... but of course you're right. It raises interesting questions about the nature of the deep well that both men were drawing from. Sort of leads one to suspect (among other things) that many of us are going to be surprised at who all we encounter in heaven one day. I also agree that the Silmarillion isn't really a light read. I checked it out from the local library shortly after it first came out back in 1977 or '78 -- which means I would have been a junior or senior in high school. As I recall, I made it through about 20 pages -- and set it aside. I picked it up again a few years ago. And while I still have not read it through from front to back, this time I enjoyed poking around. Truthfully, it has more the feel of a reference book than something meant to be read through. But it's the sort of reference book where it's easy to lose oneself in the depths -- wandering from one story to the next, making new connections and elaborating on old ones. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Just tell the truth and let the chips fall... </div>

sorehed · Nov 22, 2005

"The killing of the Lion is central to the whole concept of Narnia, and I just LOVE the concept of 'further up, further in' as a representation of the afterlife. The parallels with Christianity are blindingly obvious, yet the philosophies expressed are more universal than any one religion. Brilliant! What a master of storytelling, too!" Not surprising considering his background and interest in myth, both pagan and real. You can see a much more overt pagan mythology in his book Till We Have Faces. It seems to me this line of thought, integrating Christian and pagan mythology, shows the influence of Augustine, but that's probably a thought for another thread some other time. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Anyway, I thought this piece by a professor of English from Bowling Green State was pretty good. <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />He is Not a Tame Author We know what Mr. and Mrs. Beaver thought of Aslan, but what would they have thought of Mr. Lewis? Some 55 years after the first publication of his artful children's fantasy, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, we may say, collectively expressing our amazement that C. S. Lewis's book sales are still roaring along, "he is not a tame author." With the release of the movie version of the first Narnian Chronicle a month away, we know they are about to skyrocket further. Is there bloggable news in that? Well, let's see. The November 7th issue of Newsweek is about to introduce the rest of America to Lewis. And what will they find? A headline that says, "The creator of Narnia was a scholar, a drinker-and a believer." Hmmm, a drinker, huh? That's a good trio of items . . . Well, maybe not. Most, but not all, readers of this blog would know certain things, like that Lewis died on Nov. 22, 1963, the same day John F. Kennedy was assassinated. But not everyone would recognize that, 42 years later, not</blockquote>

spacester · Nov 23, 2005

the_masked_squiggy · Nov 24, 2005

Unfortunately, it looks like the soundtrack is very much Contemporary Christian music, focused away from the art of making soundtracks and toward playability on the Christian radio stations. Yes, Rebecca St. James has most decidedly forgotten how to rock. Hasn't rocked in about 8 years. sigh. Yes, I do identify myself as Christian. I have been looking forward to the release of the film. I do not, however, like how this is headed. Just not fond of "inspirational" music. Ewwwwww.

reepicheep · Dec 3, 2005

Did u know C.S. Lewis was pals with J.R.R. Tolkein?

JonClarke · Dec 4, 2005

I've seen two different trailers in the past week. It certainly looks very spectacular. Visually, it is a combination of LOTR and HP, which is obviously going to be a major demographic in the audience. The sound track, assuming the trailure used some of the original, was epic in character. I think it is looking good. Aslan is very wild, as he should be. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

CalliArcale · Dec 5, 2005

I saw Aslan last weekend as well. You're right -- he looks perfect! One commercial had a good glimpse of the Queen as well, and she looks perfect too. She has a frighteningly cold, inhuman beauty. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

JonClarke · Dec 5, 2005

Aslan looks perfect, wild, majestic, and good. I am not sure about the voice, but we will see, Which trailer did you have? The one that focussed on Lucy finding the wardrobe or the one on Edmund? The White Witch looked very good. The children looked right for the part too, although Lucy seemed to be a bit young. We will see on that too. Apart from changing reindeer to polar bears I have not heard of any changes. If this the most significant change I will be a very happy vegemite! Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

CalliArcale · Dec 5, 2005

Well, my attention was divided; my daughter was asking me to help her with a puzzle. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> So I'm a bit foggy on the details. I do think this is a series where they'll have to be careful about making changes. Reindeer to polar bears is no biggie, but I think Narnia will tolerate changes less well than LOTR. (I know, you didn't like the changes in LOTR. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> But I was okay with them.) The Narnia books are much more compact -- an ideal length for film adaptation, really. With LOTR, there's the excuse that they have to change *something*, or it'll never fit into a movie. Narnia is more manageably sized. I'm very excited about it. I will probably see it about a week after opening; I get alternate Fridays off work, and it's a great time to catch matinees. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

neutron_star69 · Dec 6, 2005

The Chronicles of Narnia is my favorite book series. I have read 3 books already and i fell in love with the books

JonClarke · Dec 8, 2005

Yes, their shorter length should make them easier to do that LOTR. I don't object to neccessary changes, for example I was gobsmacked by "The Goblet of Fire" and think it the best one yet, even though it ruthlessly pruned the story. The problem with LOTR wasn't the pruning it was the added material and the character changes. I think if Narnia fails it will be because the film does not present the world view of the books with the same sensitivity. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

CalliArcale · Dec 8, 2005

I, too, was gobsmacked by "Goblet of Fire". They were pretty brutal with their editing, but frankly, the book was the most rambling of them all; there was plenty that could be cut. They'll have a tougher time with the next one. "Order of the Phoenix" is a lot denser, with neccesary exposition. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

the_masked_squiggy · Dec 9, 2005

Going to see the late showing tonight...anybody else? I'll be sure to post non-spoiler goodies on it later.

JonClarke · Dec 9, 2005

Interesting. I found GoF the best of a great series. It was OotP which was rather padded I thought. It will certainly be easier to condense, cut out the teenage angst! Plus the Grawp subplot, which as yet seems to be superfluous. But maybe not. I am torn between anticipation foer the last book and sadness that it is the last. But Rowling certainly understands the teenage mind set, she made me cringe in self memory. Fortunately Harry grew out of it by the start of the next year. Otherwise Voldemorte would not have to do him in, everyone else would! But most teenagers seem to survive that phase, I have two, I periodically consider putting them up for adoption, but not often and always relent <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Apologies to the teenagers amongst us! Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

the_masked_squiggy · Dec 10, 2005

As promised...just got back from seeing it. I'll leave the religion, and what was changed from the book, and everything else people could nitpick about, for another day. I'm in too good of a mood. They pulled it off. You don't feel your butt go numb after the first 90 minutes. Random stuff: --I actually didn't recognize Aslan's voice actor at first. Neither did my friends. Certainly none of us expected Liam Neeson. --Jadis was incredibly well cast. Inhuman beauty, as Calli said, is a good beginning to describe her...she pulls off seeming almost caring when she wraps her cloak around Edmund to keep out the cold...and no explanation is required for her lack of armor during the battle. Kudos to the choreographers. She kicks butt. With alien style and grace. Reminiscent of her other role: as Gabriel in "Constantine". Great moments: Tumnus's butt-check during the battle, the ignoble death of Nicabric, and the desperation in St. Nick's demeanor. Didn't really find anything cheesy to make jokes at. Except for the river maybe. Water's a bit too blue, spurring the comment that God invests in 2000 Flushes. Thought the first centaurs you see have too much makeup on. Don't have to stay through the credits if you don't want, but don't rush out of the theater either: there's one more scene that starts just shy of a minute into the credits. Soundtrack: not bad. Certainly not what I feared. I think a lot of the certain-*type*-of-radio-station-playable stuff is on during the credits, and not the movie proper. Does that make sense? It IS 2:30am here after all. Anyway, they go orchestral and do it well. Of course, there are a few homages to the LotR movies. Most noticeable to me are the casting of Kieran Shaw, and of course the shots of the map of Narnia. And that's all I'll mention for now. Winter break is upon us as of tonight, and the Xbox calls!

JonClarke · Dec 10, 2005

Thanks! I will look forward to your nitpicks too! Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

tohaki · Dec 11, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Really, I would think that a non-Christian person could read and enjoy the books; the philosophies come straight out of Lewis' extensive work in Christian theology, but they are quite widely applicable. Although I suppose some nowdays might be bothered by "The Last Battle", which could be read as negative towards ecumenism.<hr /></blockquote>I have always liked Narnia and despite being a Rationalist any religious themes have never bothered me. They are simply good stories. I don't think this is a huge issue for anyone outside the small circles of book-burning fundamentalist Christians or hardcore atheists.

the_masked_squiggy · Dec 12, 2005

Alrighty, here goes: CAUTION: SPOILERS Peter, despite being the leader of the four, has the least character development. That's a little disappointing. His reactions in family situations at times just seem...arbitrary? Another thing with Peter: at the battle, when he takes over leadership of the army...they really should have explained the battle tactics a little better. He just kind of blundered into it not seeming to know what he was doing, and suddenly they're using German bombing techniques with the griffins and a bottleneck in the gorge. Um, I'm fairly sure, just based on the way the rock-dropping was done, that that was Peter's idea. But they really could have included the audience a bit more in the planning, even if it was just something like the centaur captain telling him they had SOME plan. One more time: Liam Neeson as Aslan was awesome. Yes, they turned the "Father Christmas tea party getting turned into stone" into "they were helping the fox and got turned into stone". Not a huge change, but something you'd notice. Something else that I was looking for that was missing is when the Witch's sledge got stuck in the mud and grass (since the snow was melting) and Edmund had to help pull. As for the Turkish Delight that the Witch gives Edmund, in the books it was enchanted and highly addictive. In the movie, they didn't show that. I was a little disappointed. It made poor Ed look even more craven, when he's really just a kid with a bad attitude. If they had, however, Ed wouldn't have looked quite so bad and the Witch would have looked even more evil, which really wasn't necessary at that point. I don't remember the phoenix from the books, but it seriously should have had more airtime. Nothing else I can think of right now. Although it is really late, so I'll post more if I can think of it. And finally,

trofast · Dec 12, 2005

I went to see the movie and despite the power going out FOUR times during the movie, I still loved it. Would have been better had I got to see it the way through without interruptions, but it was very well done. Just a note on the Turkish delights. I went with a friend who had never read the books (honestly... I didn't know that there are people who haven't) and he thought they they were enchated (or at least full of some sort of magic) because Edmund kept asking after then and it seemed to so tripe. I think it comes across, but it could have been more obvious.

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