"The Shuttle can't go to the Moon"

[najab]

Given that you have that source, how can you say: "Elektron is basically a sewage plant and dumps rather corrosive waste overboard.", when the first sentence of the article says "the water mostly comes from <b>partially distilled</b> urine but any water will do as long as it <b>doesn’t have harmful impurities</b>."?<p>By the time you even partially distill urine it doesn't have anything more corrosive than salt in it, and even that isn't vented overboard. The only thing that's supposed to go out is Hydrogen. The current thinking is that the contaminant seen on the port is lubrication oil.</p>

 

[scottb50]

Your right the main purpose is not waste disposal but Oxygen production. Using waste water is as a source a reflection of the cost of water and the desire to utilize as much of it as possible.<br /><br />Originally I was posting to those who keep saying hydrolysis won't work in zero gravity or is too hard to do to be practical. <br /><br />I suppose if you can't refute that it works the best option is to divert the subject off on a tangent though. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[najab]

><i>I suppose if you can't refute that it works the best option is to divert the subject off on a tangent though.</i><p>Your point: "Hydrolysis in space is easy."<p>My counterpoint: "The only operational hydrolysis unit currently in space is having major technical problems."<p>I'm not throwing the subject off on a tangent. You are the one who said Elektron was a sewage plant. My point is that it's not as easy as you might think.</p></p></p>

 

[jatslo]

“Your point: "Hydrolysis in space is easy."<br /><br />" My point is that it's not as easy as you might think. "<br /><br />For the record, I would tentatively agree with both of you, but I can see where it would be safer to launch water into space for processing, as opposed to launching processed liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen. At least, that is if I am reading this thread right.<br /><br />http://jatslo.com/ : Jatslo<br />

 

[tap_sa]

After you get your moonbase up and running it's no more necessary to haul oxygen from Earth because moon has plenty of it and much easier to transport. Lunar aluminium is also a good propellant, pulverize and mix it up to 70% weight with hydrogen and you got nice gel with stellar Isp, good density and easier storability than plain LH2.

 

[jatslo]

" Lunar aluminium is also a good propellant, pulverize and mix it up to 70% weight with hydrogen and you got nice gel with stellar Isp, good density and easier storability than plain LH2. "<br /><br />I nice supply of water ice on the moon wouldn't hurt, but lets not let that stop us.<br /><br />There is a lot of talk about water vapor on Mars, right now. I wonder where that will lead us.<br /><br />http://jatslo.com/ : Jatslo

 

[averygoodspirit]

PLAN FOR ORBITING GAS STATION<br /><br />1. Rendezvous with a comet<br /><br />2. Whack off a quarter mile cube of it<br /><br />3. Attach a three axis thruster unit<br /><br />4. Maneuver the large chunk of ice into orbit around the earth at the gravity well ridge between the earth and the moon.<br /><br />5. Set up an outpost complete with a water to LOX – LH2 processing plant. <br /><br />6. Send interplanetary ships in an increasingly spiraling orbit away from the earth until they meet up with the way station. <br /><br />7. Fill up the fuel tanks <br /><br />8. Continue mission to planet of choice <br /><br />Shuttle_guy says that orbit would be unstable because the orbital periods of the moon and the station would be different and the gravitational interaction between the earth and the moon on the station would be significant. The moon might throw the station into an orbit around the sun. <br /><br />I was trying to find an orbit that would be far enough away from the earth that would allow for a sufficient and efficient velocity of an interplanetary spacecraft. One where we wouldn’t have to make much of an adjustment in velocity to match the orbital velocity of the station. <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jatslo]

I guess that would all depend on timing/speed and a lot of other factors.<br /><br />What comet is coming around anytime soon that we can blast a piece from? I thought we needed a Moon base by 2025, or something like that? <br /><br />Scientists are counting on Deep Impact to carve out a crater in Comet Tempel 1 that could swallow the Roman Coliseum. It will be humans' first look into the heart of a comet, a celestial snowball still containing the original building blocks of the sun and the planets. <br /><br />Because of the relative speed of the two objects at the moment of impact -- 23,000 mph -- no explosives are needed for the job. The force of the smashup will be equivalent to 41/2 tons of TNT, creating a flash that just might be visible in the dark sky by the naked eye in one spectacular Fourth of July fireworks display.<br /><br />Maybe, the comet will break apart.<br /><br />http://jatslo.com/ : Jatslo<br />

 

[averygoodspirit]

You know what we could do is shape the quarter mile chunk of ice into a spacecraft. We could hollow it out, make living quarters, and science labs inside it. The chunk of ice would serve as radiation shielding. We could attach some rocket engines to it, use the spacecraft as its own fuel source, and away we go. <br /><br />The shuttle can’t go to the moon, but a manmade comet can go many, many places.<br /><br />The first place we will take our ice ship is out to snuggle up against an asteroid that has a high content of iron, aluminum, titanium, gold and platinum. From that day forward the United States Government will be begging NASA for money. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jatslo]

" asteroid that has a high content of iron, aluminum, titanium, gold and platinum "<br /><br />China says it is planning to establish a base on the Moon to exploit its mineral resources. <br /><br />Their long-term goal is to set up a base on the moon and mine its riches.<br /> <br />China has not yet put a human into space, but scientists say they expect to do so within three years and they have outlined an ambitious program for the future that includes the Moon.<br /> <br />In fact, China is planning to launch its first mission to the Moon in 2010.<br /><br />Only two countries - the former Soviet Union and the United States - have achieved manned space flight.<br /><br /><br />http://jatslo.com/ : Jatslo

 

[jatslo]

Helium-3, rare on Earth but found in abundance on the Moon, could be used to develop a clean, safe and limitless fuel for energy.<br /><br />International investors rather than taxpayers will fund the next lunar explorers in my opinion; however, when someone invests in something they almost always expect to make a profit.<br /><br />How do we get someone to invest and/or donate funds to mission that involves the Earth, the Moon, then Mars?<br /><br />http://jatslo.com/ : Jatslo<br />

 

[najab]

><i>China has not yet put a human into space...</i><p>The first Chinese manned mission was more than a year ago.</p>

 

[jatslo]

" Only two countries - the former Soviet Union and the United States - have achieved manned space flight. "<br /><br />Sorry, I meant to say that only two countries - the former Soviet Union and the United States - have achieved manned space flights to the moon.<br /><br />http://jatslo.com/ : Jatslo

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">".. only two countries - the former Soviet Union and the United States - have achieved manned space flights to the moon..."</font><br /><br />Nope -- still wrong. The Soviet Union sent no manned flights to the moon.

 

[jatslo]

“ Under NASA’s plan Northrop will serve as the prime contractor on the development and testing of the crew exploration vehicle, which is designed to carry crewmembers into low Earth orbit. Boeing will serve as a team member and subcontractor for Northrop during this phase. <br /><br />The two companies will then switch roles, with Boeing taking the lead for the expansion of the CEV into a craft that can travel to the Moon and Mars. <br /><br />The two companies will submit response to a request for proposals, which NASA is expected to issue sometime next year. The space agency is expected to choose two teams to work on the vehicle, which could be demonstrated by 2008. One team is expected to build the craft, which could be operational as early as 2014. <br /><br />Lockheed Martin Corp. and Orbital Science Corp. are also expected to bid on the project and may even join forces to offer a rival team bid, according to aerospace analyst Paul Nisbet of JSA Research. <br /><br />The project could mean the creation of a substantial number of new jobs, especially in Southern California, where Northrop and Boeing Space systems have numerous facilities. <br /><br />But the contracts are not expected to contribute significantly to either company's profits. <br />"It's more of a prestige item," Nisbet said. "It's not one that is going to make either company very rich. These one of a kind items are almost always cost-plus contracts with very little profit for the prime contractors." “ <br /><br />--- http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=239578<br />

 

[jatslo]

" This project could mean the creation of a substantial number of new jobs "<br /><br />However, the cost of executing to project is an financial burden, and I really have serious doubts as to whether or not the US tax payer alone will be able to carry this burden.<br /><br />This is why I propose that we come together, and pool our money as private investors.<br /><br />I know a little something about marketing, and we can rapidly turn a few individuals into thousands of willing individuals at no cost.<br /><br />http://jatslo.com/ : Jatslo<br /><br /><br />

 

[jatslo]

Will you join me in promoting this concept?<br /><br />There are billions of individuals that are willing to contribute, and all we need to do is bring them in.<br /><br />1 makes 2, 2 makes 4, 4 makes 8, etc.<br /><br />http://jatslo.com/

 

[jatslo]

Let us mix things up a bit until we can find a way to generate leads. For starters, I will link the following thread, until we can find an affective marketing slogan that works.<br /><br />http://uplink.space.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=missions&Number=139236&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0<br /><br />“ The taxpayer cannot carry the financial burden alone.“<br /><br />http://jatslo.com/ : Jatslo

 

[jatslo]

" First, America will complete its work on the International Space Station by 2010, fulfilling our commitment to our 15 partner countries. The United States will launch a re-focused research effort on board the International Space Station to better understand and overcome the effects of human space flight on astronaut health, increasing the safety of future space missions. <br /><br />To accomplish this goal, NASA will return the Space Shuttle to flight consistent with safety concerns and the recommendations of the Columbia Accident Investigation Board. The Shuttle's chief purpose over the next several years will be to help finish assembly of the Station, and the Shuttle will be retired by the end of this decade after nearly 30 years of service. <br /><br />Second, the United States will begin developing a new manned exploration vehicle to explore beyond our orbit to other worlds -- the first of its kind since the Apollo Command Module. The new spacecraft, the Crew Exploration Vehicle, will be developed and tested by 2008 and will conduct its first manned mission no later than 2014.<br /><br />The Crew Exploration Vehicle will also be capable of transporting astronauts and scientists to the International Space Station after the Shuttle is retired. <br />Third, America will return to the Moon as early as 2015 and no later than 2020 and use it as a stepping stone for more ambitious missions.<br /><br /> A series of robotic missions to the Moon, similar to the Spirit Rover that is sending remarkable images back to Earth from Mars, will explore the lunar surface beginning no later than 2008 to research and prepare for future human exploration. Using the Crew Exploration Vehicle, humans will conduct extended lunar missions as early as 2015, with the goal of living and working there for increasingly extended periods. <br /><br />The extended human presence on the Moon will enable astronauts to develop new technologies and harness the Moon's abundant resources to allow manned explora

 

[jatslo]

“ A New Earth-Moon Transportation System<br /><br />LTS is developing a new lunar architecture that has a number of advantages over current known and evolving architectures. Our architecture uses new innovations for modularity and flexibility, leading to reduced development cost, a faster development schedule, and better evolvability.<br /><br />LTS architecture will enable NASA to meet its near-term strategic objectives including: sending small payloads to the lunar surface in a few short years, sending larger payloads to the lunar surface in succeeding years, and sending crews to the Moon and back to the Earth by the middle of the next decade. <br /><br />LTS is a privately financed company that requires encouragement and cooperation from NASA to raise the private capital required to design, build, ground test, flight test, and operate its Earth-Moon transportation system. “<br /><br />--- http://www.lunartransportationsystems.com/default.aspx<br />

 

[jatslo]

“ The NASA-operated balloon flew circles around the South Pole while gathering data on cosmic rays, high-energy particles that travel at nearly light-speed and slam into Earth's upper atmosphere.<br /><br />The helium-filled balloon was launched from the National Science Foundation's McMurdo Station in Antarctica on Dec. 16. It traveled 41 days, 22 hours, landing on Jan. 27. The previous record for a pilotless balloon flight was 31 days, 20 hours, also an Antarctic effort, in 2001. “<br /><br />--- http://www.livescience.com/technology/050128_balloon_record.html<br /><br /><br />The Earth's magnetic field travels north to south, south to north, and makes contact with the Earth at the poles.<br /><br />Charging this ultra light craft makes since, and they are moving a pretty large payload too.<br /><br />I think you are wrong to not concede to the possibility ;o)<br /><br />http://jatslo.com/ : Jatslo

 

[nacnud]

jastslo,<br /><br />If you want to use the Earths magnetic field to push against in order to propel a spacecraft try looking up Electrodynamic tethers. [space.com]<br />

 

[jatslo]

" http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/technovel_tether_041109.html "<br /><br />Okay, so we have electrically charged stadium sized helium balloons floating 4000lb cargo containers on earth’s electromagnetic field. These super-light crafts travel from the North Pole to the South Pole, and from the South Pole to the North Pole.<br /><br />The Electro Dynamic Tethers are running from East to West, and West to East.<br /><br />Now this is interesting, because instead of jerking containers from the Earth’s surface, Electro Dynamic Tethers could theoretically net containers from the passing balloons, and then utilize its electromagnetic properties to move the containers down the length of the Tether to a staging area. If an Electro Dynamic Tether can jerk containers from Earth’s surface, then it could also keep containers suspended in space.<br /><br />The electrically charged stadium sized helium balloons will continue their present course to either the North Pole or the South Pole where we would change the polarity, load another container, and then send it back to where it came.<br /><br />It might be possible to utilize tethers as a guide, as in a needle and thread. Use the Tethers to line up the containers in a row for docking, slap an engine on the end and send it to the Moon where the containers when emptied are used as temporary habitats on the Moon, and Mars.<br /><br />Everything is moving pretty slow though you would think, and this method will not work for either the Moon, or Mars because of the absence of electromagnetism.<br /><br />Something to think about,<br /><br />http://jatslo.com/ : Jatslo<br />

 

[scottb50]

? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[nacnud]

I don't think that would work. Electrodynamic tethers as a space bases technology, you need to already be in orbit to use them. This is because that although they can generate a force it is a very small force that needs a long time to generate significant changes in velocity (delta-v, delta is used as a symbol for change normaly represented as a triangle point up and v for velocity). <br /><br />They are more in the class of ion drives and solar sails and could not be used to move objects from the Earths surface to LEO, however elecrtodynamic tethers could be very useful for moving objects around in Earth orbit or in a gas giants orbit.<br /><br />