The Source Of All Energy (The Source Of All Time)?

[Atlan0001]

The source of all energy would probably not be energy (would be energyless). The source of all time(s) would probably not be time (would be timeless). Over long threads and posts, I think I've reached that point and entity of 'source'. I had reached it to begin with and stuck with all through what I've described, the Multiverse of the infinite Universe (U), but not as realization of energy's, and time(s)', source. That is... not until lately.

To present a picture I really do not care to see it as it is seen, as it is now pictured again and again, our finite local, relative, universe is not accelerating in expansion into either deep freeze or nothingness, to an end in deep freeze and/or nothingness. It is [[sourcing]] its energyless, timeless, infinite constant of primordial 'source' of all its energies and time(s). Though I don't really care to see it as such, I could say it looks to be accelerating in expansion reaching [[forward]] through the distantly collapsed [[back]] horizon into its primordial "source" of all its energy and time (energies and times). Forward into a source form of time reversal. Forward into a source form of reversal of entropy.

 

[ThePatriotBeast]

Wow. That's some critical thinking right there! I have to agree with you.

 

[rabsal]

Atlanta could u clarify that a little more especially the expansion part? Sounds great initially .....

 

[Atlan0001]

Atlanta could u clarify that a little more especially the expansion part? Sounds great initially .....

I'm saying it never went away in any expansion, and never goes away in any expansion, from its source of energizing. If anything it would be expanding into its source, the infinite (the infinity), always. The source infinite essentially materially fuels the energy / time engine of the finite(s) (the quantum fluctuations of micro-verse QM and/or even the vibrations of the strings of string theory) but has no energy, no time, itself. Again, it is energyless and timeless. Early on I didn't see it this way. Only gradually did I realize and strip the infinite of all energy, including stripping it of three forces I finally realized had no place in the infinite, leaving only the one, gravity (as I've said many times now, the irresistible force of the immovable object).

Any more clarification would take redoing -- re-going over -- virtually everything I've done here over months now, Most particularly my last posts in the thread (not my own (spacedweller's)) "Space is not finite but infinite." And I not only had book and article help over months and years and decades, but lots of "food for thought" help right here in reaching this point of my modeling.

 

[rabsal]

It's almost like you are giving the infinite the same qualities as the QF as a source. We call that the void or dharmakaya in buddhism, which is pure potentiality.
Your conclusions about energy and time are the way I like to think of it too as a zero point that fuels it all....but keep the wheels turning you sound like you are onto something....
One thing that I have been testing is what if the inflation that proceeds our visible bubble universe expansion, which is faster than light speed is sending "effects" back to us-entanglement at the macro level is one- and because it is FTLS we will move towards our past instead of our future, or time is flowing backwards in the inflation parts....I really don't know what that would mean.... maybe the universe never ends but just repeats, cyclic?, others have said as much....

 

[Atlan0001]

It's almost like you are giving the infinite the same qualities as the QF as a source. We call that the void or dharmakaya in buddhism, which is pure potentiality.
Your conclusions about energy and time are the way I like to think of it too as a zero point that fuels it all....but keep the wheels turning you sound like you are onto something....
One thing that I have been testing is what if the inflation that proceeds our visible bubble universe expansion, which is faster than light speed is sending "effects" back to us-entanglement at the macro level is one- and because it is FTLS we will move towards our past instead of our future, or time is flowing backwards in the inflation parts....I really don't know what that would mean.... maybe the universe never ends but just repeats, cyclic?, others have said as much....

Our Local universe is like an upwelling crust (plane) of volcanic lava that has been cooling since day one of translation from an infinity of Planck level singularities (taken from our plane of universes via blackhole event horizons and transported, processed, and manufactured care of blackholes' universal connection to Big Crunch's infinite of 'naked singularity') to an infinity of Planck level [[so hot]] jet blue-white holes that they are here one instant, gone the next (quantum field fluctuation). Not only cooling since day one, but materially disappearing gradually since day one via that blackhole process from macro-verse exit to micro-verse [[primordial]] material entry. Our fate one day. I see us accelerating in decelerating (from essentially light speed entry) toward exit in gravity's Abyss of infinite 'naked singularity' (our deceleration to and into it being an observed acceleration in expansion of the local, relative universe we observe cooling -- and disappearing around us (surprise, surprise, an 'observable universe' missing materiality it should not be missing (even blackholes eventually fold into themselves and vanish into that same 'naked singularity')).

An upwelling plane of many planes vertically deep from a constant of entry to a constant of exit circuiting through that infinite of 'naked singularity'. And all the broad horizontal planes of infinities of finite bubble universes go through exactly the same generations from youth to death, from entry to exit, as a streaming constant of circuit from finite's micro to finite's macro; and from finite's macro to finite's micro, regarding the infinity of finite local, relative, universes, that is. Energy and time, to me the same, begins with singularity to quantum fluctuation and materialization translation and ends with blackhole event horizon and infinite 'naked singularity'. And 'naked singularity' does not necessarily need any [[obvious]] event horizon. The "infinite Universe (U) ('1')" right along with its self-mirrored negative personality twin "infinite Universe (U) ('-1')" is the combined, joined, and merged total of all 'naked singularity' throughout all spaces and all times to an infinite Universe (U) (('1') ('-1')) "all in one; one in all", so to speak. And is the source of all energy (all energies) / time (all times) it doesn't have anything to do with other than sourcing -- and eventually, inevitably ending to complete one circuit of a forever constant streaming of "turning" circuit.

Just in passing and by the way, particles of information are duplicated countlessly throughout an infinity of finite universes. But the odds of a bit of information going into the infinite of blackholes' 'naked singularity' in exiting one universe and entering the same universe at the other end Planck level singularity and Planck level entangling blue-white blue hole jet would be infinitely against ever happening. It would eventually exist again somewhere in some universe, but not likely the same universe it exited before passing through Hawking's "Grand Central Station" of infinite Universe with that single-handed eternally stuck on Midnight (0-point time) "clock" on its center (dead center) post.

 

[Catastrophe]

rabsal: you posted
"I really don't know what that would mean.... maybe the universe never ends but just repeats, cyclic?, others have said as much...."

Good to see you agreeing with me. I have posted that many times in many contexts.

Cat

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Vpe=0.000000038 newtons per cubic M
That is the 0 point energy of vacuum space.

IMO fluctuation is the product of (nothings potential energy).
No space/no time/no anything had potential energy just as a property of taking up an area.

Fluctuation unbalanced at the start creating sub atomic particles that stayed.

The Reason for everything and every physics law could be that simple an equation.

Nothing=Potential Energy
PE=Fluctuation
Fluctuation=PE converted to free matter/energy

 

[Atlan0001]

Vpe=0.000000038 newtons per cubic M
That is the 0 point energy of vacuum space.

IMO fluctuation is the product of (nothings potential energy).
No space/no time/no anything had potential energy just as a property of taking up an area.

Fluctuation unbalanced at the start creating sub atomic particles that stayed.

The Reason for everything and every physics law could be that simple an equation.

Nothing=Potential Energy
PE=Fluctuation
Fluctuation=PE converted to free matter/energy

Relativity breaks down. It breaks down, and it breaks down, and it breaks down, going away from here-now, everywhere, and everywhen, that is. It keeps on breaking down, to infinity. Its breakdown, and its breaker, is also known as the micro-verse of quantum mechanics, the finite wrecking ball of the infinite's 'naked singularity' to infinities of singularities. The micro-verse of quantum mechanics is also the Big Mirror Mirroring (the third dimension of the duality of Big Crunch Vortex (Big Hole Vacuum)), the intrusive materiality of the infinite Universe's split into two [[infinite]] personalities, its mirroring of its infinite self into two (('1') ('-1') net ('0')), then to infinity (infinity of non-finite, non-local, non-relative, (the back-ground, so to speak) point infinitesimals) // (infinity of finite local, relative, (the fore-ground, so to speak) bubble universes).

The micro-verse of quantum mechanics [[is]] the depths of the macro-verse, which has no other depth. If there is a nothingness of nowhereland to the macro-verse, it is the depth(s) of the micro-verse of quantum mechanics. "Nothing Is Outside The Universe (Therefore, Everything Is Outside The Universe)". That "nothing" and "everything" outside the macro-verse of relativity is the micro-verse of quantum mechanics. The micro-verse of quantum mechanics' Planck 'action' level most distant horizon from relativity [[down and in]] doubles as the MICRO-verse's BB 'action' level most distant horizon from relativity [[up and out]] in and regarding the macro-verse of relativity. Again, relativity breaks down. It breaks down, and it breaks down, and it breaks down, going away from here-now, everywhere, and everywhen, that is. It keeps on breaking down, to infinity....

Outside!: The micro-verse of QUANTUM MECHANICS outside the macro-verse of RELATIVITY!

 

[Atlan0001]

Often I realize I'm confusing people with my realizations of dualities and more. Those, Chaos Theory's "fractal self-similarities", and more, such as superposition correlative entangling of two or more objects or spaces or times, or any combination of things. I've even discovered a little while ago the article Quanta Magazine just put out, "How Gravity is a Double Copy of Other Forces". A "double copy".... maybe.

Within all this multi-dimensional thinking is the realization that the infinities of "infinite Universe (U)" and the multi-dimensionality of Multiverse are just different faces of the same thing. I've been before climbed all over for even beginning to limit the infinite of 'naked singularity' between blackholes' event horizons (inside finite local, relative, universes) and "singularities" (I claim are outside of the definition and probably existing anywhere but the originating blackhole's universe). The odds against it being there (the originating universe), I say, are infinitely against. And their very existence outside of infinite Universe's 'naked singularity' is where Multiverse multi-dimensionality steps in in full force presence. Like Hawking particle of information that could be both inside and outside the event horizon of a blackhole at the same time, a singularity is sub-Planck level string and string vibration; pre-quantum field fluctuation level string and string vibration. It is sub-Planck horizon. "Singularity' and infinite 'naked singularity' are string multi-dimensioned Multiverse and/or infinite Universe. Probably, I am sure, I am in no way the first person to see it this way. As a matter of fact, I am very sure I've read it, or something very similar to it, from String Theory. As I said before in this thread and elsewhere, everything passes through, has passed through, and will ever pass through, Hawking's "Grand Central Station" of infinite Universe 'naked singularity'. It will always be both inside and outside that Station: Infinitely and timelessly archetypical inside and finite -- to infinity -- outside. The time on that Station clock, as Hawking said, is single-handed and timelessly stuck on Midnight (24:00:00 / 00:00:00, so to speak).

Post-"source" action level (string vibrations / quantum field fluctuations) extends across and through the Planck / BB 'action' level horizon. The horizon itself the collapsed horizon "betwixt and between" infinite and finite.... that horizon at once being the entity of "net '0'" (('1') ('-1')). My only problem may be that the Big Crunch Vortex (the Big Hole Vacuum) may be nothing but string dimensionality. I mean it may be both ways, just as I've read before that it may be. Their problem would be enough build up of complexity, enough jungle of dimensionality, it would inevitably collapse in on itself. Now I'm right back to alternating fractal grainy and smooth. So I will leave singularities (grainy detail) and naked singularity (smooth aspect) lay for now.

But now? Gravity "a double copy of other forces"? A double copy.... maybe? A double... copy?

 

[rabsal]

Atlan you are breathing rarefied space for sure....unfortunately for me it will take days to digest your inflationary mental waves because they are traveling faster than lights speed and I have the old model "moment to moment spacial activator"....you and Alain should try a BH hole merger and start a New Physics....

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Relativity breaks down. It breaks down, and it breaks down, and it breaks down, going away from here-now, everywhere, and everywhen, that is. It keeps on breaking down, to infinity. Its breakdown, and its breaker, is also known as the micro-verse of quantum mechanics, the finite wrecking ball of the infinite's 'naked singularity' to infinities of singularities. The micro-verse of quantum mechanics is also the Big Mirror Mirroring (the third dimension of the duality of Big Crunch Vortex (Big Hole Vacuum)), the intrusive materiality of the infinite Universe's split into two [[infinite]] personalities, its mirroring of its infinite self into two (('1') ('-1') net ('0')), then to infinity (infinity of non-finite, non-local, non-relative, (the back-ground, so to speak) point infinitesimals) // (infinity of finite local, relative, (the fore-ground, so to speak) bubble universes).

The micro-verse of quantum mechanics [[is]] the depths of the macro-verse, which has no other depth. If there is a nothingness of nowhereland to the macro-verse, it is the depth(s) of the micro-verse of quantum mechanics. "Nothing Is Outside The Universe (Therefore, Everything Is Outside The Universe)". That "nothing" and "everything" outside the macro-verse of relativity is the micro-verse of quantum mechanics. The micro-verse of quantum mechanics' Planck 'action' level most distant horizon from relativity [[down and in]] doubles as the MICRO-verse's BB 'action' level most distant horizon from relativity [[up and out]] in and regarding the macro-verse of relativity. Again, relativity breaks down. It breaks down, and it breaks down, and it breaks down, going away from here-now, everywhere, and everywhen, that is. It keeps on breaking down, to infinity....

Outside!: The micro-verse of QUANTUM MECHANICS outside the macro-verse of RELATIVITY!

When you break down the universe into it's basics it's about 99.999 etc % nothing so i would say the universe is mostly nothing with very small amounts of stuff holding up nothing.

Food for thought.

 

[rabsal]

I just figured out that the reason they say it's 0 is because of the law of thermodynamics and the conservation of energy, so the universe always equals 0...at least I will believe I am correct until someone says otherwise...anyone wish to clarify???

 

[rabsal]

Visible matter is 3 or 4% of the energy...

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

I just figured out that the reason they say it's 0 is because of the law of thermodynamics and the conservation of energy, so the universe always equals 0...at least I will believe I am correct until someone says otherwise...anyone wish to clarify???

The everything is so close to 0 what makes up everything is near 0 content.
Nothing=99.999 etc
Something = the rest

 

[Catastrophe]

Quote (Wiki Laws of Thermodynamics
The first law of thermodynamics states that, when energy passes into or out of a system (as work, heat, or matter), the system's internal energy changes in accord with the law of conservation of energy.
The second law of thermodynamics states that in a natural thermodynamic process, the sum of the entropies of the interacting thermodynamic systems never decreases. Another form of the statement is that heat does not spontaneously pass from a colder body to a warmer body.
The third law of thermodynamics states that a system's entropy approaches a constant value as the temperature approaches absolute zero. With the exception of non-crystalline solids (glasses) the entropy of a system at absolute zero is typically close to zero.[2]
Quote

Does this help in clarification?

Cat

 

[Catastrophe]

When you break down the universe into it's basics it's about 99.999 etc % nothing so i would say the universe is mostly nothing with very small amounts of stuff holding up nothing.

Food for thought.

VPE
There are "solid" bits of something in "nothing". For example we know that an atom is mostly "empty" or very low probability of finding "anything", but we still perceive a "solid" Universe in terms of objects we encounter.

It is just that the Universe seems to be a very low concentration of "solids" in an enormous volume of space.
BUT that is forgetting the 95% dark energy and dark matter, which you also seem to have omitted from your statement - or am I missing something?

Cat

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

VPE
There are "solid" bits of something in "nothing". For example we know that an atom is mostly "empty" or very low probability of finding "anything", but we still perceive a "solid" Universe in terms of objects we encounter.

It is just that the Universe seems to be a very low concentration of "solids" in an enormous volume of space.
BUT that is forgetting the 95% dark energy and dark matter, which you also seem to have omitted from your statement - or am I missing something?

Cat

Even neutrons and protons are mostly nothing so solid is just a perception.
Quarks mostly nothing also so even the building blocks of them are lots of empty space that quanta laws say is truly nothing.
Fluctuation same thing made up of mostly nothing.
Very small amount of E in a very big BB area.

1 single atom is over 99% nothing and the area to the next atom is 100% nothing.

Dark energy i have my doubts it exists in the normal understanding as a force, the nature of it would create energy with no cost and creates even more as it expands again with no cost.
Breaking a few E laws doing that.
As a temp byproduct of fluctuation dark energy/matter would be just a temp energy/matter that as fluctuation expands looses energy trying to fill nothing.
Could be a simple mechanism to halt expansion when fluctuation runs low on E filling nothing.

 

[Catastrophe]

VPE,
We all know about "nothing", but "nothing" is not what greets us if we jump off a 20 story building without a "nothing" parachute. We all have to recognize "something".

Cat

 

[Atlan0001]

Sorry Rabsal. In rereading some posts I came across something in your post (#5) I shouldn't have passed over:

"It's almost like you are giving the infinite the same qualities as the QF as a source. We call that the void or dharmakaya in buddhism, which is pure potentiality." -- Rabsal.

"Potentiality"!

To infinite there is no such thing as finite. Finite is point infinitesimal to infinite ("infinity of non-local, non-relative, point infinitesimals / infinity of finite local, relative, bubble universes").

To finite there is no such thing as infinite, in whole. It, infinite, translates to "potentiality". That is all that 'infinite' is to 'finite', "potentiality." Nothing more nor less than that.

These are how I see the relationships and have defined the relationships before.

 

[agent00seven]

This is all confusing to me. I simply look at the conservation of energy law, which tells us all the energy in existence had no beginning and will have no end. In other words, it is eternal, constant, finite, of fixed value - however you want to word it. Then I dissect reality, or everything in existence from there and ask questions: Is the universe and all its known and undiscovered dimensions everything in existence or is it just a fraction of a more complex reality that could consist of other universes like or very much unlike ours with different laws of physics? Since space-time is an energetic fabric, I imagine there is a point at which it can no longer stretch. At that point, it could simply reverse course if it acted like an elastic or it could quantum leap into something else with different dimensions and laws of physics. Since the expansion appears to still be accelerating, I favor the quantum leap view. The universe could be in a more complex cycle instead of a simple expansion and contraction. That would apply if the universe is all there is, but if it is only a fraction of a more complex, perhaps open reality in which all the energy can interact with only temporary barriers, the picture would be considerably more complex.

 

[Catastrophe]

"This is all confusing to me. I simply look at the conservation of energy law, which tells us all the energy in existence had no beginning and will have no end."

007. This is not exactly true. Beginning and end are very anthropocentric concepts, but perhaps endless is no
You still have entropy to deal with. One situation, for example, leading to heat death. You may conserve energy, but not in a usable form.

Cat

 

[Atlan0001]

This is all confusing to me. I simply look at the conservation of energy law, which tells us all the energy in existence had no beginning and will have no end. In other words, it is eternal, constant, finite, of fixed value - however you want to word it. Then I dissect reality, or everything in existence from there and ask questions: Is the universe and all its known and undiscovered dimensions everything in existence or is it just a fraction of a more complex reality that could consist of other universes like or very much unlike ours with different laws of physics? Since space-time is an energetic fabric, I imagine there is a point at which it can no longer stretch. At that point, it could simply reverse course if it acted like an elastic or it could quantum leap into something else with different dimensions and laws of physics. Since the expansion appears to still be accelerating, I favor the quantum leap view. The universe could be in a more complex cycle instead of a simple expansion and contraction. That would apply if the universe is all there is, but if it is only a fraction of a more complex, perhaps open reality in which all the energy can interact with only temporary barriers, the picture would be considerably more complex.

More complex? Think about the buildup of energy in a cell of life, for just one thing. Once it has built up so much energy the relative buildup of said "complexity" kind of collapses; it divides, fissions, into two or more, thus conserving energy averagely. The divisions, the fissions, could continue to infinity and energy be conserved [[averagely]] to infinity. Of course, as far as I'm concerned and visualize, the division to an infinity pre-exists in dimension the dimension of dividing (fissioning) to infinity, has always existed, and will always exist as the Universe in its totality of infinity gaining nothing and losing nothing. Concerning finite, infinite / infinitesimal / infinity exists, translates, only as "potential". No, your eyes did not just cross (as I imagine they might have). "Multiverse multi-dimensionality" can appear weird. What may appear to be on its way to existing locally (as futuristic 'potential'), should and probably does already exist to infinity non-locally. And as I said, that infinite has always existed and will always exist, energyless and timeless source of both energy and time.
----------------------------
It seems I must do this analogy once more: The (infinite) forest is a separate entity from the (finite) trees that are in it and make it up, being the (infinite) forest of all the (finite) trees, all at once (massively all at once one might say). But the (infinite) forest of all the (finite) trees is, at once, in each and every (finite) tree of the (infinite) forest as its, the infinite's, potential. (Which comes first; which came first; the chicken or the egg? The egg in the chicken? Or the chicken in the egg? Either one? Neither one? "'Multiverse multi-dimensionality' can appear weird.")

 

[IG2007]

I can indeed describe number 1 as infinite decimals piled together. I can also describe 0 as infinite numbers getting subtracted by themselves. But that does not change the value. The value remains same. No matter if there are infinite universes in the multiverse, they are all valued the same, that is, 0.

 

[agent00seven]

"This is all confusing to me. I simply look at the conservation of energy law, which tells us all the energy in existence had no beginning and will have no end."

007. This is not exactly true. Beginning and end are very anthropocentric concepts, but perhaps endless is no
You still have entropy to deal with. One situation, for example, leading to heat death. You may conserve energy, but not in a usable form.

Cat

What's untrue about that statement? I understand our view of such things as beginnings, endings, voids, solidity, infinity, etc. However, I'm looking at it from the 'conservation of energy' perspective and stating that if energy cannot be created or destroyed, it must be eternal and have a fixed value, which means it doesn't have an infinite value.

Something had to have always been in existence in order for anything to exist. We've seen some of the complex exchanges energy is capable of, but its capabilities may far exceed what we are witnessing in our space-time continuum. We may never be able to put it all together due to limited access of what may be a far more complex reality.